Interrogatory and Vendor Updates - Root of Happiness 30% Kava Extract

[Alia]

OK, I finally have a chance to respond. I wrote half a post earlier today but life got in the way.

Before I go further, I want to say that I'm disappointed in the mods for censoring my post. There were two parts to my post:
First I mentioned my own personal pet-peeve (vendors disrespecting the growers of their kava). It seems the mods are fine with this.
Then I came to the reason I created this thread, I posted two screenshots.

The first screenshot was of the vendors own words. It's the vendor who says that kava processed in China can't be trusted. I merely highlighted part of the text in red, but it is verbatim from his website. Aside from bashing Chinese manufactured kava, he also obscures the fact that his own product is manufactured in china.

The second screenshot was of the product COA. The mods have seen fit to remove this for reasons I can't comprehend. The vendor has clarified in follow-up posts that the product is indeed manufactured in China and everything I said in the second part of my post was true. He said that the COA was incorrect, but the parts that were incorrect are irrelevant to my post. The product is still made in China.

If the mods feel that the "FFFUUUU" rage meme was uncalled for, I could upload another graphic without that meme. The reason I used that was because that was my reaction when I saw the COA. A vendor bashes Chinese manufactured product, and then hidden away in the fine print is the fact that he manufactures his product in China. That's so WTF and FFFUUUU worthy, it's hilarious.

Hi Tyler,
Thanks for responding to my post. My responses follow:


No, this would be like "Americas Tire Company" selling "Japanese Tires" that were actually made in Malaysia.


Yes I can. eg: "Fraud occurs when companies attempt to pass off foreign olive oil as 100 percent Italian."

But that's really beside the point. You aren't breaking any laws and many on here seem to agree with you that this is just absolutely fine. That's cool. It's just my opinion that you should give credit where it is due. I mean, you owe so much to kava. It'd be nice if you gave back in a tiny way by helping raise awareness of Melanesia in the American consciousness. Help teach Americans that there's more to the Pacific Islands than Fiji Water and Polynesian hula girls in grass skirts.


Everyone else seems fine with it (and there are smarter and more sciencey folk than I on here that accept it), but I have to ask... how does this qualify as a COA? It's your info on your letterhead filled out by your employee. I mean, I could make one in half an hour... edit one in 3mins if I had a template to fill out. The Chinese manufacturer that @verticity found that sells the same product you sell also publishes a COA that they wrote themselves. Personally I would only accept a COA from a third party lab.


Out of context? I presented a screenshot of your page. I provided no commentary of it other than to depict my honest reaction in a humorous way with a meme. But the content was a screenshot, and then your COA. I posted it here exactly in the context it was presented on your website.


You did that yourself. Read it again. Here's a screenshot of *your words*.

This is as yet undetermined, but as you claimed, 99% of Kava Extracts produced in China are Tudei chemotypes. As this is an extract, there is no way for us to know whether the source material was tudei. There is also no way for you to know, unless you flew to China multiple times to test all the kava that came out of those containers.
In any case, the mods have your back, and the product alert has been removed.

I guess the takeaway from this is supposed to be... what?... that Chinese manufactured kava is to be considered bad unless it's manufactured in a GMP facility and publishes a COA? No, that can't be, the Chinese manufacturer I linked to earlier meets that criteria.... as do just about all the other Alibaba vendors.

I'm reaching to find what else differentiates your extract from the ones on Alibaba. One might suggest that it's about trust in your reputation as a major American kava vendor, but if I recall correctly (correct me if I'm wrong), you were one of the staunchest opponents of the noble kava "movement".

Thanks also @kasa_balavu for writing this, so very true and (by far) the best candidate for kava origin--" It'd be nice if you gave back in a tiny way by helping raise awareness of Melanesia in the American consciousness. Help teach Americans that there's more to the Pacific Islands than Fiji Water and Polynesian hula girls in grass skirts".

 

[verticity]

 

[verticity]

...
...but I have to ask... how does this qualify as a COA? It's your info on your letterhead filled out by your employee. I mean, I could make one in half an hour... edit one in 3mins if I had a template to fill out. The Chinese manufacturer that @verticity found that sells the same product you sell also publishes a COA that they wrote themselves. Personally I would only accept a COA from a third party lab....

That is an excellent point.

 

[Bula Kava House]

To answer a couple questions, but not all. Hopefully I'm not out of bounds by speaking for ROH:
-I believe @Tyler was saying the difference between his Chinese manufactured extract and others is source material. His material is from a known supplier to him and is tested to confirm that it's noble before processing. Also the quality of the facilities where its processed is apparently much better.
-@tyler mentioned that the reason for the "Polynesian" name was that sometimes the source material is from Polynesia. It switches up depending on quality, price, availability, etc. This particular CoA was made with a Fijian kava. As a fellow vendor, I understand how difficult it would be to rebrand every time a change like that is made. *As an aside, I talked to a Samoan chief yesterday, an exporter, two farmers, and a waitress (waitress was asked about a different hypothetical product), asking them if they would be offended in this exact situation (but changed the name to "Melanesian Gold"). Not a single one gave a single fuck. In fact, they had a hard time comprehending the question it was so ridiculous to them. I'm sure they don't speak for all pacific islanders, and I accept anyone's right to be offended, but it's not some huge common offense to the locals where I am.
-As for CoAs: Companies create their own all the time (Although ROH's CoAs are from the AKA, which is a separate entity, but I see what you're trying to get at). They're simply a compilation of third party results. The AKA has the testing for the CoAs done by third party labs. I'm sure if you kindly asked, he'd be happy to provide the raw data. He was just playing nice by providing these CoAs. Really they're made for when the FDA comes a knockin', not for scrutinizing forum members.
-You mentioned that Tyler should be doing something for kava because it's done so much for him. I contend that currently he's doing more for kava than any vendor in the US. While dozens of vendors and bars are popping up willing to do nothing more than mix kava with acetone to confirm quality, Tyler is trying to get the AKA off the ground to help ensure that vendors and bars are doing all that is required by law to sell kava and keep people safe. I get nothing for promoting the AKA, I just believe in its goals. Vendors don't need to become members, but the requirements for being a member should be adopted by the industry as a whole and demanded by customers.

That's all I got. Bula!

 

[HerbalDude420]

Does any one else find it funny that many here claim to be unbiased yet when it comes down to it the whole reason any of us are even here KAVA people tend to be the most sensitive biased group of people. Its not the first time a vendor has shown up and been crucified for there products. You all should be glad a vendor even wanted to show up here if I became a vendor I would want nothing to do with this forum. You are suppose to drink kava and not judge but the first thing that always happens is judgement. Honestly when I drank kava I enjoyed myself and never showed up here I was to busy actually enjoying playing retro video games, listening to music, talking amongst friends. I see that you took away my right to post in this thread good to know you silence those you don't agree with be forewarned if you speak out and speak your mind they will make sure you can not.

 

[kasa_balavu]

Hi @HerbalDude420,

Does any one else find it funny that many here claim to be unbiased

I can't speak for anyone else on here, but I have never made any such claim.

when it comes down to it the whole reason any of us are even here KAVA people tend to be the most sensitive biased group of people.

This is completely normal. When people form a community around something they love, they tend to want the very best of and for that thing. We all love kava, and want the very best kava for ourselves, and to share with others who haven't yet experienced this thing we love. In our case, that generally means praising good behaviour, and calling out bad behaviour. While it's upsetting to you (and to many of us) to have to go through this publicly, at the end of it I believe we are all better off for it. In this specific case, the vendor will be more careful not to (unintentionally?) mislead their customers, and other vendors will hopefully have noticed and will continue to do their best to be transparent and honest about their products going forward.

You all should be glad a vendor even wanted to show up here if I became a vendor I would want nothing to do with this forum.

This vendor doesn't seem to participate in the community at all as far as I can tell (one can check his post history to verify that). He's just here to sell his product. That said, it is good to communicate directly with him. A vendor having direct contact with their customers is a valuable thing. I think I have done him a service by calling out his mistakes. He will no doubt correct his course (as he's already done, updating his product descriptions) and is better off for it. The number of people who read this thread are a tiny fraction of his customer base, so in the long run I believe it's good for him.

You are suppose to drink kava and not judge but the first thing that always happens is judgement.

If there weren't good people being judgemental on here 2yrs ago we'd all still be drowning in tudei. I believe that my being a jerk today will benefit you and everyone else in the kava industry in some small way over the long run.

Honestly when I drank kava I enjoyed myself and never showed up here I was to busy actually enjoying playing retro video games, listening to music, talking amongst friends.

I love that picture

 

[kasa_balavu]

I believe @Tyler was saying the difference between his Chinese manufactured extract and others is source material. His material is from a known supplier to him and is tested to confirm that it's noble before processing.

The same supplier that sent him tudei in the past? He no longer checks this kava himself. It's sent directly to China, the same China that in his own words produces kava that is 99% tudei. His website claims (even after he updated it yesterday to change info he said was outdated) that this kava is washed, peeled, and dried in a FDA approved GMP facility. I believe this to be untrue. AFAIK, there are only two such facilities in Fiji at present, and that was not the source of this kava. I'll happily retract that and apologise in a new, prominent thread if he can prove otherwise.
As for the confirmation of nobility, we haven't seen any lab-issued COA for this or any of his kava, so that's up in the air.

As an aside, I talked to a Samoan chief yesterday, an exporter, two farmers, and a waitress (waitress was asked about a different hypothetical product), asking them if they would be offended in this exact situation (but changed the name to "Melanesian Gold"). Not a single one gave a single fuck. In fact, they had a hard time comprehending the question it was so ridiculous to them. I'm sure they don't speak for all pacific islanders, and I accept anyone's right to be offended, but it's not some huge common offense to the locals where I am.

That sounds about right. As I said, it was my personal view. In general, it's only the pesky Islanders who graduate from the University of the South Pacific who get offended by such silly things. Obviously it's too late to ask a follow-up question, but since you'll be in Tonga next, ask farmers if they'd be OK with you labeling their kava as Samoan kava because you think that Samoan kava will sell better than Tongan kava. Pay close attention when you ask though. Personally I'd swallow my pride and let you call it whatever you want if you were going to pay me more than I can get at the local market.

-As for CoAs: Companies create their own all the time (Although ROH's CoAs are from the AKA, which is a separate entity, but I see what you're trying to get at). They're simply a compilation of third party results. The AKA has the testing for the CoAs done by third party labs.

Well we've already shown in this thread that AKA issued COA's can't always be trusted... the vendor himself said it was erroneous. Some of the AKA COA's on his website only show a 3-digit chemotype. Why not just publish the lab-issued results?

I get nothing for promoting the AKA, I just believe in its goals. Vendors don't need to become members, but the requirements for being a member should be adopted by the industry as a whole and demanded by customers.

I too like their goals. Do you have a link to the members and any further details about the organisation itself? Does it have a publicly-available constitution? Is Tyler accountable to AKA members, and do they publish annual reports?
I assume that as a foreigner, I can't become a member of this association. What do the members think of their leader? IIRC Tyler was defending Tudei on the AKA website saying it was harmless and the real danger is from bacterial and heavy-metal contamination while the product descriptions on his own website says Tudei will make you sick.
@Bula Kava House maybe it's time to consider electing a more credible person to head the AKA.

 

[Bula Kava House]

Haha. There's no convincing some people. It's all good. I realize this is fruitless. There's nothing anyone can do or say to satisfy everyone. There will always be a rebuttal and I have a successful business to run.

So, my last statement on the subject to members not named @kasa_balavu, but I'm sure he'll jump in for a last word: Despite the chance that I'll drive potential sales to a competitor I can tell you that I'm certain that ROH's current products are tested and confirmed noble. They've also been tested for microbiological contaminants and heavy metals. I've seen test results myself, and there are summations of those results compiled on CoAs on their vendor page. I've tried ROH's instant and most of their traditional grind kavas and they've all been nice. I haven't tried the extract because I'm not personally into extracts. If I were, I would know that I'm getting a good product.

I have no other reason to promote a competitor's products other than because I'm reasonable, and I don't like seeing others trolled. I've been there personally and as much as we just want to write it off as a couple unreasonable voices, it sucks to have people badmouthing our products. We take great pride in the work we do to make sure we're selling people the quality they deserve. On that note, go buy Bula Kava House kava It's super!

 

[Bula Kava House]

Oh, I'm sure you would prefer passionate . But actually very few members are so "passionate" lol. There's always a very small (as in an extreme minority of members) rotating group of tr...um "passionate" kava enthusiasts. They're predictably the loudest voices.

*edited for clarification

Damn, suckered into another post.

 

[Groggy]

Oh, I'm sure you would prefer passionate . But actually very few members are so "passionate" lol. There's always a small rotating group of tr...um "passionate" kava enthusiasts. They're predictably the loudest voices.

Damn, suckered into another post.

lol

 

[verticity]

Oh, I'm sure you would prefer passionate . But actually very few members are so "passionate" lol. There's always a small rotating group of tr...um "passionate" kava enthusiasts. They're predictably the loudest voices.

Damn, suckered into another post.

You realize you are insulting your best customers right now, right?

 

[Groggy]

You realize you are insulting your best customers right now, right?

I am not insulted. The funniest thing is that everything has been addressed from the OP, yet the thread continues.

 

[Bula Kava House]

You realize you are insulting your best customers right now, right?

I don't know. There are a very select few I would paint with any sort of negative brush. I love this forum, and 99% of the members are amazing. I doubt that the other 1% are buying our kava at all. I see what your saying though. I apologize if anybody was truly offended, my customers or not. I was just ribbing folks.

 

[verticity]

I don't know. There are a very select few I would paint with any sort of negative brush. I love this forum, and 99% of the members are amazing. I doubt that the other 1% are buying our kava at all. I see what your saying though. I apologize if anybody was truly offended, my customers or not. I was just ribbing folks.

I wasn't offended. I'm probably not one of your best customers, but I do buy stuff from you pretty often: Nambawan, Nangol Noble, Waka. My buying decisions won't change because of any opinions you express; I base my purchases on the best available facts about the products, not on things people say off the cuff. But I'm just trying to help by pointing out what should be obvious.

 

[Bula Kava House]

@verticity Thanks for the business, my dude.

 

[verticity]

There are a handful of us who do post a lot. In my case the number of posts I have made is simultaneously a point of pride and an embarrassment. But remember there are probably 100x more people reading this who don't post anything:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1%_rule_(Internet_culture)

 

[Bula Kava House]

What I think your missing and that I thought of made clear is that I'm not talking about forum members in general, or those who post a lot. I love the forum, and the extreme majority of posters are positive, reasonable, don't jump to conclusions, are unbiased, etc. There are also those who are not.

 

[Bula Kava House]

In any case, I appreciate you and your concern. Let's move forward.

 

[verticity]

What I think your missing and that I thought of made clear is that I'm not talking about forum members in general, or those who post a lot. I love the forum, and the extreme majority of posters are positive, reasonable, don't jump to conclusions, are unbiased, etc. There are also those who are not.

Not to belabor this, but my point was that those who you might consider confrontational and biased, and I know exactly who you are talking about, are admired and respected by many of us wallflowers. That is all.