What's new

A wider spectrum

ThePiper

Kava Lover
Probably a bunch of hard heads out there. Noble kava can be hard to market to tourists and novelty seekers because it doesnt hit as hard as tudei for first timers.
 

Kojo Douglas

The Kavasseur
I honestly don’t think there’s that much Tudei being served at any Kava bars. Is there any evidence for this? My experience is that these generic Kava bars just serve crappy watered down Kava.

It’s actually really hard to find Tudei at all!
 

Gourmet Hawaiian Kava

Kava Expert
Kava Vendor
I honestly don’t think there’s that much Tudei being served at any Kava bars. Is there any evidence for this? My experience is that these generic Kava bars just serve crappy watered down Kava.

It’s actually NOT really hard to find Tudei at all!
It is actually real easy to find tudei kava, check this out-----
https://kava.com/shop/tudei-kava-root-powder/
https://kava.com/shop/isa-kava-root/
This next one is a isa extract found here----
https://rootofhappinesskava.com/?gc...hFxRf1fARfYR3n87vVN0WLcCTzcBhUyhoC6V0QAvD_BwE
Then you can always get Isa from this person----
https://www.instagram.com/isabestkava/
Kava by Rex still sells Isa but is currently out of stock.
Now you know that it is still very easy to get.

Chris
 

Kojo Douglas

The Kavasseur
Yes, if you are interested in buying Tudei it can be found. But of the dozen or so Kava bars I've been to, I've only seen Isa once. I was served wild Kava once, but that's a whole different beast.
 

The Kap'n

The Groggy Kaptain (40g)
KavaForums Founder
Yes, if you are interested in buying Tudei it can be found. But of the dozen or so Kava bars I've been to, I've only seen Isa once. I was served wild Kava once, but that's a whole different beast.
lol, where on earth do you even buy wild kava specifically to sell? That's a bigger enigma than the tudei to me personally. It seems you would almost have to try to purchase such shitty product.
 

Kojo Douglas

The Kavasseur
lol, where on earth do you even buy wild kava specifically to sell? That's a bigger enigma than the tudei to me personally. It seems you would almost have to try to purchase such shitty product.
In the case of wild Kava, it must be that when farmers aggregate their root they harvest from the bush and mix it in with their exports. I don't think anyone ever intentionally drinks wild Kava unless it's for ritual purposes.
 

Gourmet Hawaiian Kava

Kava Expert
Kava Vendor
Yes, if you are interested in buying Tudei it can be found. But of the dozen or so Kava bars I've been to, I've only seen Isa once. I was served wild Kava once, but that's a whole different beast.
Yes, I guess your right. There are a few bars that I know of but that is here in Hawaii. I guess it is good that it is hard to find in the kava bars, but bad that some have low quality kava that they serve to potential new kava consumers.

Chris
 

The Kap'n

The Groggy Kaptain (40g)
KavaForums Founder
K@ Culture
This news report has nothing to do with kava and yet kava is all over it. Such a shame.
Oh, that's the one! I could hear my wife laugh from the other room when I was watching it when she heard "Bula!" after hearing the subject of the clip.

Of course "Bula!" is one of the first things you hear. "Bula" has nothing to do with this. I chock that up to the reporter or editor of the segment not understanding that the term is one from kava culture. However, no matter "why", it still underscores the fact that we've seen kava being plastered in news articles due to the negative attention that K@ is receiving. Again, another reason even the K@ bar owners themselves should be protecting their future income by making a VERY distinct line in the sand between the two. I honestly think K@ would enjoy a much more solid future if it weren't sold as a recreational substance. I digress, though. The main concern seems to be and will most likely always be that dollar for some.
 

kastom_lif

Kava Lover
There is no place in America where the sale of K@ for human consumption is legal, so yes, it makes sense to sell it under the counter. Yes, some places advertise it, but none calls itself a K@ bar and few are that open about it. I keep seeing "exotic tea" on the menus published online.

Anyway, we've had this discussion one million times. People can drink and buy whatever they please. I just like to remind people that it might be a bit misleading to assume kava is "booming" in America as evidenced by the increase in kava bars when in fact most of these "kava bars" only survive thanks to K@.
Try to find even one kava bar in a US state where K@ is illegal. Even if you’re not selling K@, the very association will attract unwanted heat from law enforcement.

K@ is a straight up felony here in Alabama. If I were to open a kava bar or even just sell readymade casually online, I guarantee I’d be getting raided weekly. Not worth the hassle. Even the super sketchy “kava” in local head shops has completely disappeared.
 

kastom_lif

Kava Lover
In the case of wild Kava, it must be that when farmers aggregate their root they harvest from the bush and mix it in with their exports. I don't think anyone ever intentionally drinks wild Kava unless it's for ritual purposes.
Introduced PNG isa is the big culprit in Hawaii. In Vanuatu there’s also also stuff like palisi and fabu/stone. They all grow fast and pack a mean punch.

Though, the 2002 Kava Act doesn’t allow export of tudei. So you’ll only find it blended into other cultivars, either accidentally or on purpose (hence the need for trust, integrity and testing.) On the other hand, “medicinal” kava is quite hard to come by and you CAN export it legally as long as the overseas buyer asks for it by name.
 

SelfBiasResistor

Persist for Resistance!
The very fact that there is not a single "K@ bar" in America despite K@ accounting for over 80% of average Florida "kava bar" revenue (as per industry insiders), suggests that the vendors of the plant do feel the need to be cautious.
It's not the need to be cautious as much as it is the need to not be a cash only business. Back in 2016 when the DEA announced the intent to ban, banks were notified that it was a scheduled substance and since then will not allow business banking access for vendors selling it. The DEA rescinded the ban but failed to make it clear to banks that the product is still legal to sell at a federal level so that is why you won't see US based businesses with K@ in the name, websites keeping product behind logins, etc. It's not because they are doing something wrong but a necessity due to the mess created by the FDA in their attempt to clear a path for future drugs and stop the sales losses to the pharmaceutical industry with their lesser effective and vastly more dangerous drugs.

In NZ K@ is a prescription medication, possibly as it should be in other places too (bearing in mind that healthcare is largely free in New Zealand).
Scheduling K@ to be a prescription medication in the US will not work unless it's done in the same way as medical marijuana. Doctors know little to nothing about herbs and would never prescribe it. Here, they are heavily influenced by the pharmaceutical industry. The drug companies can even follow up on what drugs each doctor is prescribing and how much/often. If sales decline they can deploy their sales reps to encourage the doctor to up prescriptions. I wouldn't want the plant to be involved in this system, it's not in anybodies best interest.

BTW, how often is K@ prescribed to patients in NZ?
 

verticity

I'm interested in things
It's not the need to be cautious as much as it is the need to not be a cash only business. Back in 2016 when the DEA announced the intent to ban, banks were notified that it was a scheduled substance and since then will not allow business banking access for vendors selling it. The DEA rescinded the ban but failed to make it clear to banks that the product is still legal to sell at a federal level so that is why you won't see US based businesses with K@ in the name, websites keeping product behind logins, etc. It's not because they are doing something wrong but a necessity due to the mess created by the FDA in their attempt to clear a path for future drugs and stop the sales losses to the pharmaceutical industry with their lesser effective and vastly more dangerous drugs.
...
The fact that K@ is not scheduled by the DEA does not mean it is legal to sell at the federal level. In fact, according to the official word from the FDA, it is illegal to sell because the FDA considers it to be harmful.

Direct quote from an official statement by the FDA:
"K@ is not legally marketed in the United States as a drug or dietary supplement.."
https://www.fda.gov/news-events/pre...l-unapproved-K@-drug-products-marketed-opioid

I understand that there are organizations such as the American K@ Association who dispute this interpretation. They and you are entitled to keep saying K@ is "legal", but I understand that as a rhetorical strategy for building public pressure to liberalize these regulations, not as an accurate description of current law. I'm actually in favor of efforts to legalize K@ in some form, but the current reality is that as the regulatory agency in charge, the FDA gets to interpret and enforce laws about selling dietary supplements, and they have clearly stated on a number of occasions that importing, marketing, or trafficking in K@ is not legal.

(My opinion about the advisability of kava vendors also selling CBD is similar by the way. I think the evidence that CBD is completely harmless is much stronger than the evidence for K@, but I'm still not completely comfortable with vendors who sell both kava and CBD under the same roof or virtual storefront either, because the latter is not entirely legal federally in many cases.)
 
Last edited:

SelfBiasResistor

Persist for Resistance!
The fact that K@ is not scheduled by the DEA does not mean it is legal to sell at the federal level. In fact, according to the official word from the FDA, it is illegal to sell because the FDA considers it to be harmful.

Direct quote from an official statement by the FDA:
"K@ is not legally marketed in the United States as a drug or dietary supplement.."
https://www.fda.gov/news-events/pre...l-unapproved-K@-drug-products-marketed-opioid
You can interpret it any way that you want but simply selling ground and dried leaves isn't illegal. The news release you referenced is regarding marketing as an unapproved drug (medical claims) or as a dietary supplement. You can believe K@ vendors are "traffickers" but that doesn't change the fact that it is legal to sell it until it's banned through the proper legal process. The FDA has been abusing their power and blocking imports but work is being done to correct that situation (hopefully).

I understand that there are organizations such as the American K@ Association who dispute this interpretation. They and you are entitled to keep saying K@ is "legal", but I understand that as a rhetorical strategy for building public pressure to liberalize these regulations, not as an accurate description of current law.
The FDA only enforces when products are mislabeled, suspected to be contaminated or when unapproved claims are made. Not being approved for consumption does not make a substance illegal to sell in any form. As for the AKA, they have a professional legal team advising them so I'll trust that they understand the law better than you or I. Without them the plant would have been banned and illegal to sell in any form after all. About liberalizing the regulations... The AKA has been pushing for regulation based on science opposed to the FDAs desire to simply ban it (paving the way for pharmaceuticals soon to be released, at least one being a derivative of the leaf) and ignore the millions of people who are having great success with the plant as well as the scientists continuing to research the risks and benefits. Work is being done at the state level to regulate and secure freedom for the people who need it and eventually we should be seeing some legislation going through congress.

(My opinion about the advisability of kava vendors also selling CBD is similar by the way. I think the evidence that CBD is completely harmless is much stronger than the evidence for K@, but I'm still not completely comfortable with vendors who sell both kava and CBD under the same roof or virtual storefront either, because the latter is not entirely legal federally in many cases.)
The FDA has indeed declared it illegal to market and sell CBD as a supplement and have declared that it can cause liver damage. The FDA warned about liver damage and kava in the past so they don't have a good track record when it comes to medicinal/psychoactive herbs.
 

verticity

I'm interested in things
You can interpret it any way that you want but simply selling ground and dried leaves isn't illegal. ...
My point is that K@ is illegal at the Federal level. If you read the Federal statutes cited above that is pretty clear and unambiguous. Retail sales are regulated locally, and as you are well aware, state and local laws vary widely. In many but not all jurisdictions in the US, K@ is legal to possess and consume, so customers in those jurisdictions are not doing anything illegal, and the bartender or retail clerk completing the sale possibly isn't either--but the bartender's boss or wholesale supplier who imported the K@ from Indonesia surely broke Federal law in doing so, despite the fact that the most likely consequence for them is nothing.
 
Last edited:
Top