Zaphod
Kava Lover
Any more thought to making a tudei only section for those who want to discuss and review tudeis?
Tudei is the day!
- Thread starter Edward
- Start date
Not a bad idea but the more we separate tudei from noble the more we mystify it and make it almost a forbidden fruit. I think we need to normalise it, talk about what it does and why you would use it and give all the information about it for people to make up their own minds.
Edit... just by talking about it like this we have already detoxified the subject. It seems to me like the kavaforums is getting back to what it used to be about, talking about and drinking good kava and discussing which kavas are best without stifling debate about kavas that some people don't want to drink.
nickbroken
Kava Enthusiast
I think the thing with tuedi is this. I am perfectly fine with people drinking it, if it's that you are into personal freedom is the say to go. Now you tried tudei and it wasn't bad, pretty good Edward. Why? Because you took it in moderation. Most people are stupid as shit and think more equals better, myself included. I think if they packaged tuedei as medicinal or some such with instructions of doses it would go a long way. Because the wrong person drinking too much tudei would cause problems for kava. I don't think tuedei is bad and it has it's place, but it needs to be packaged correctly.
Yes and my point is that if education about it is key then why do we clam up about it and not talk about it?
nickbroken
Kava Enthusiast
I don't have issues talking about it, I know certain people did. I think a big part is because there sre tuedei and anti tudei zealots and the conversation gets a bit heated. It's the internet, it's difficult to be able to have conversations nowadays without it turning into a shitstorm. In the end it doesn't overly matter, if people want to get tudei they will and be able to decide for themselves. All the drama that has happened over the past year from all parties has kinda tainted the forum. I am not overly innocent as I used to get in arguments a lot and it was just a water of time and contributed to the negativity. Thus I don't really come around much anymore.Yes and my point is that if education about it is key then why do we clam up about it and not talk about it?
I miss first coming here when everoeve was chill. People would always comment of how mellow and laid back everyone was on this forum and it all changed when tuedei came up and vendor wars started. I hope this forum can get back to being how it once was because it's filled with awesome people.
nickbroken
Kava Enthusiast
Nene to me is the best for anxiety, closely followed by boroguru. The Nene is going to be put to the test next week boys as I'm traveling cross country, might do some kinda thread documenting it.
Pauluk
Kava Enthusiast
It looked after me during two weeks of the hell that is the Orlando Theme parks.
Kimmer
Patently irritable
Okay, Edward. I'm giving it a try tonight. I've never had luck with kava putting me to sleep, so crossing fingers!!
Sorry, late to the party here, but whoa whoa whoa, where did you see tudei kavas that have 20-30x the FKB? I'm gonna need a source for that. Everything I've seen shows FKB levels in tudei to be around 4-5x that of noble. And PNG Isa has nearly identical FKB levels to Nene, and barely more than many other noble kavas. Truthfully, drinking micronized noble probably exposes the drinker to about the same amount of FKB as drinking strained tudei.
Also, this is just a theory. And not a super well supported one at that.
It is nice that this conversation can come up without the dogmatic nonsense now. Over the last couple years, certain members have made it seem like any non-noble kava will likely make you sick at best, kill you at worst. That's absolutely not true. Not for experienced drinkers, not for noobs. I've mentioned this here before, but before all the tudei hubub and testing I sold two different non-noble cultivars. Not adulterated noble, but 100% tudei. First, in the very early days, I had a Hawaiian Isa, then later, what was likely PNG Isa. They were served daily at the kava bar, and sold online. Online sales of the PNG Koniak in particular were outstanding, with plenty of repeat orders. Reviews were overwhelmingly good, and we had no more adverse reaction reports to them than we did and do with any noble kava. And trust me, if I was forced to mop up dozens of piles of puke everyday because bar patrons were getting sick, I definitely would have stopped selling the offending kava immediately.
Sure there are tudei kavas that will cause illness, but that's not all, or even most, as @Edward has now realized.
Sure there are tudei kavas that will cause illness, but that's not all, or even most, as @Edward has now realized.
Señor Chuggs
Friend of Kava
I like this discussion. My 2 cent is that its really important to take a step back and look at this forum community and how this dialogue is different than other forays into the kava world. Ima make a few assumptions here but bear with me. Its just a lot easier for me to write this using in-group pronouns like "we", "us", etc.
Generally speaking, the people posting regularly on these forums, and especially the impassioned voices in the tudei debates, drink a LOT of kava. A LOT. I bet many of us are the resident kava nerd in our various social groups. We are drinking it daily, cranking the dose up or down as needed. With many of us drinking it in a medicinal capacity, this stuff is profoundly important to us.. our life blood
. Our sacrament. It irks the MAKAS out of us when friends and loved ones see kava as some crazy ooga-booga snake oil product, superficial counter-cultural fashion, or some chronic addiction. Especially if they have never given it a chance. That in mind, consider this:
I get it! I'm WITH it! We NEED advocates that stand against this crap, and try, on some level, to uphold the elements of kava culture which make it the wonderful plant it has become through ages of tradition.
Jeez, get Chuggs a shell
But if there's a bone to be picked, its with the sentiment. Not the people. And more importantly, there is no 2 groups of heretics and a single group of righteous kava proponents. These are all stereotypes. Some might suggest they are products of insular cesspools of thought gone uncontested, inevitably echoed again and again and hyperbolized at each interpretation, like a game of telephone or a photocopy of a photocopy. There are viewpoints infinitely around and in between these stereotypes. Discouraging voices shuts people out of the conversation. Vibes can neither be created nor destroyed. When shut out, they just compartmentalize into their own insular groups... the very groups that produce the stereotypes that are so passionately renounced. If we want to arbitrate what's "good for Kava" and what's not, it needs to be with some tact, so we can hash through disagreements like we are now, without talking heads discouraging discussion that doesn't play nice with someone's self righteous greater good for kava. Not to mention turning the thread into a lame soap box that pairs better with sleep deprived conspiracy rants than it does with smooth shells.
If you ask me, all of the irking sentiments stated here dwarf in comparison to the larger issue of elitism. Its not good to actively keep kava out of the mainstream, inevitably linked disproportionately with counter-cultural sentiments. The value of kava must be proliferated. The market drivers of TODAY are informing what and how much will be available years from now. It may feel really good taking newbies under wing, making sure they only represent the "right" image for kava, and maybe steering them clear of "newbie mistakes". But some see that as patronizing, and it shuts folks out.
The thing is, many of the things we agree on about "good kava" and whats "good for kava" are things that we arrived at independently through experience, as well as discussion. I believe that if folks are given the voice, and are heard with open minds, the community will evolve sustainably in the direction that promotes higher quality and quantity of kava being put in the ground. When it's forced, backlash is inevitable. The forums function best when they are a platform for honest discussion, both collaborative as well as competitive. Not information wars.
The mods continue to do a tremendous job maintaining that ideal platform, I might add.
Generally speaking, the people posting regularly on these forums, and especially the impassioned voices in the tudei debates, drink a LOT of kava. A LOT. I bet many of us are the resident kava nerd in our various social groups. We are drinking it daily, cranking the dose up or down as needed. With many of us drinking it in a medicinal capacity, this stuff is profoundly important to us.. our life blood
. Our sacrament. It irks the MAKAS out of us when friends and loved ones see kava as some crazy ooga-booga snake oil product, superficial counter-cultural fashion, or some chronic addiction. Especially if they have never given it a chance. That in mind, consider this:- Those persons who prize kava specifically for effects we may not consider to be characteristically noble. Imagine these folks think of some ignoble products the same way we think of smoooooth Noble kava
, or Kava at large. (or possibly K@) - Those brave eclectic types, or those in adventurous moods, that want to try something super cool. A novelty. Some might go as far to say "legal high" (but don't quote that!
). Not all these folks are newbies. Some are just occasional drinkers. Some are K@ drinkers. And they have the potential to know just as much about kava and the surrounding culture as anyone posting here.
I get it! I'm WITH it! We NEED advocates that stand against this crap, and try, on some level, to uphold the elements of kava culture which make it the wonderful plant it has become through ages of tradition.
Jeez, get Chuggs a shell
But if there's a bone to be picked, its with the sentiment. Not the people. And more importantly, there is no 2 groups of heretics and a single group of righteous kava proponents. These are all stereotypes. Some might suggest they are products of insular cesspools of thought gone uncontested, inevitably echoed again and again and hyperbolized at each interpretation, like a game of telephone or a photocopy of a photocopy. There are viewpoints infinitely around and in between these stereotypes. Discouraging voices shuts people out of the conversation. Vibes can neither be created nor destroyed. When shut out, they just compartmentalize into their own insular groups... the very groups that produce the stereotypes that are so passionately renounced. If we want to arbitrate what's "good for Kava" and what's not, it needs to be with some tact, so we can hash through disagreements like we are now, without talking heads discouraging discussion that doesn't play nice with someone's self righteous greater good for kava. Not to mention turning the thread into a lame soap box that pairs better with sleep deprived conspiracy rants than it does with smooth shells.
If you ask me, all of the irking sentiments stated here dwarf in comparison to the larger issue of elitism. Its not good to actively keep kava out of the mainstream, inevitably linked disproportionately with counter-cultural sentiments. The value of kava must be proliferated. The market drivers of TODAY are informing what and how much will be available years from now. It may feel really good taking newbies under wing, making sure they only represent the "right" image for kava, and maybe steering them clear of "newbie mistakes". But some see that as patronizing, and it shuts folks out.
The thing is, many of the things we agree on about "good kava" and whats "good for kava" are things that we arrived at independently through experience, as well as discussion. I believe that if folks are given the voice, and are heard with open minds, the community will evolve sustainably in the direction that promotes higher quality and quantity of kava being put in the ground. When it's forced, backlash is inevitable. The forums function best when they are a platform for honest discussion, both collaborative as well as competitive. Not information wars.
The mods continue to do a tremendous job maintaining that ideal platform, I might add.
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Señor Chuggs
Friend of Kava
Let me also reiterate the diversity of backgrounds that benefit from kava. Some people were drinking and/or smoking themselves to dysfunction and severe health problems before they arrived at kava. How do you think they feel when they're patronized for preferring inferior "unhealthy" kava? A lot of times its not that big of deal in the grand scheme of it all, especially in a culture that encourages heavy use of alcohol, tobacco, excessive caffeine, and expensive narcotic medicine. Its better to guide with the carrot rather than the stick when it comes to these issues. Thats my philosophy. Take it or leave it.
kastom_lif
Kava Lover
I'm not sure if dermo is always correlated to high levels of FKB. It might be some other factor. Maybe as simple as dehydration because you're zonked out and sleeping.
The worst dermo I ever got was while working through a batch of noble kava. I will be getting in some more of that particular cultivar very soon. It will be interesting to see if it hits me the same way again or not. Because aside from the dermo, it was good kava.
Let us know how it goes.
You can check out the report linked in this thread: http://kavaforums.com/forum/threads/massive-european-report-on-kava-quality-from-2015.13234/
Pages 46 and 50 reveal that fkb levels are on average 20-24 times greater in non noble.
The way I see it is that the "best" of tudeis (one or two cultivars with exceptionally low levels of fkb and perhaps relatively low dhm) may be in the best case scenario not much more likely to cause sickness than some of the heavier nobles and some people might actually find it enjoyable. Sure, some people might even think it's a better deal than weaker noble kavas. At the same time there are heaps of tudeis that will absolutely fuck people up and make people puke for hours, if not days. I have personally witnessed and experienced the effects of such kavas. In this context, the noble only position seems like a rather reasonable and safe approach for most vendors and most consumers. It makes sense not just because nobles are, in my view, superior, but also because it's way easier to detect non-noble than to detect "OK tudei" versus "12 hours of puking and shitting tudei", not to mention wild kava.
But everyone is free to do what they want and use what they feel like using.
I honestly don't care what other people drink, sell or grow, but personally support noble only kava as a good food product and I agree with Vanuatu's government position. But that's just my personal position. People are entitled to have their own views. cheers
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All science can be described as "just theories". This particualr theory is supported by genetic and historical accounts (e.g. the important paper on the Tongan-Vanuatuan kava trade in the context of the chemical composition of Tongan mutations). I think it's pretty clear kava has been developed from heavy dhm towards low dhm and high kavain and that only nobles have been spread across the Pacific despite the existence of an actual kava trade for the last 1000 years or so.
Señor Chuggs
Friend of Kava
@Henry I can certainly appreciate your position on all of this, and I can identify with the mission to ensure folks are well informed on the different kinds of kava, overarching families like Noble, Tudei, medicinal, wild, etc. and their respective risks and effects.
I also can't help but think that your outlook is hyperbolic to some extent, perhaps stemming from one or more unfortunate instances involving poor quality kava that your stomach really didn't agree with, which you were particularly sensitive to.
I know what you mean. I've gotten very queasy and sickly for hours from kava that didn't agree with me. (i'm an extreme lightweight, so good sessions feel GOOOD but bad experiences can SUCKKK). I've even had a full on alcohol-style hangover lasting all the next day. From a NOBLE kava if I remember correctly. And you know what, I've had other experiences with the same kava from the same bag that were wonderful. In that case, I think proper hydration played a big role. Kava is powerful, and its nothing to play with. It deserves respect. When you say there are heaps of tudeis that will fuck people up, I don't think you are wrong. I DO however think you may be putting to much blame on the root and neglecting to address the user. There are heaps of PEOPLE with a vast range of sensitivities to kavas. Different people can experience a different effect from the same kava. For the most part it seems like the highest quality kavas have the most predictable effects, but even that is just a generality. I think the nobility of the kava has been overstated as a factor in the way folks in the online kava community break down people's anecdotal kava testimonies. Nobility is just one component in a complex paradigm of kava's magical relationship with the human body and psyche.
When people get to drinking a lot of kava like many of us do, they go through a process of learning how best to consume kava, and choosing the right roots for the individual is a part of that process. We as a community are here to make that process as painless as possible for folks, but its still a very personal choice. I don't want the quirks of MY body, MY routine, MY preferences to interfere with another's unique kava journey.
If I'm inappropriately calling you out, or not fully understanding your position, I apologize. I admit my grievances are not with you or your points specifically, but more so with overarching sentiments I've perceived for a long time, but only recently feel open to discuss.
I also can't help but think that your outlook is hyperbolic to some extent, perhaps stemming from one or more unfortunate instances involving poor quality kava that your stomach really didn't agree with, which you were particularly sensitive to.
I know what you mean. I've gotten very queasy and sickly for hours from kava that didn't agree with me. (i'm an extreme lightweight, so good sessions feel GOOOD but bad experiences can SUCKKK). I've even had a full on alcohol-style hangover lasting all the next day. From a NOBLE kava if I remember correctly. And you know what, I've had other experiences with the same kava from the same bag that were wonderful. In that case, I think proper hydration played a big role. Kava is powerful, and its nothing to play with. It deserves respect. When you say there are heaps of tudeis that will fuck people up, I don't think you are wrong. I DO however think you may be putting to much blame on the root and neglecting to address the user. There are heaps of PEOPLE with a vast range of sensitivities to kavas. Different people can experience a different effect from the same kava. For the most part it seems like the highest quality kavas have the most predictable effects, but even that is just a generality. I think the nobility of the kava has been overstated as a factor in the way folks in the online kava community break down people's anecdotal kava testimonies. Nobility is just one component in a complex paradigm of kava's magical relationship with the human body and psyche.
When people get to drinking a lot of kava like many of us do, they go through a process of learning how best to consume kava, and choosing the right roots for the individual is a part of that process. We as a community are here to make that process as painless as possible for folks, but its still a very personal choice. I don't want the quirks of MY body, MY routine, MY preferences to interfere with another's unique kava journey.
If I'm inappropriately calling you out, or not fully understanding your position, I apologize. I admit my grievances are not with you or your points specifically, but more so with overarching sentiments I've perceived for a long time, but only recently feel open to discuss.