Calls for regulation of kava supplement

[kasa_balavu]

 

[Zaphod]

I really wish they would stop getting random doctors, who do nothing but a quick search on FDA advisory (not updated since 2002) and quote stuff without doing a more in-depth review of the literature. This is exactly where kava needs a strong association/trade group with MDs on the board to rebut these outdated studies and opinions. I must say our herbal friends on the other side do a much better job...

 

[TheKavaFlow]

I'm in Phoenix, and my mother in law just told my wife she saw something on the news about how kava is going to cause me liver damage. Now I know where she saw it, hah!

In other news, I've had multiple liver tests done and have come away clean each time. I'm tired of saying the same thing over and over again, so I'll leave this here for anyone that stumbles upon it:
https://livertox.nih.gov/KavaKava.htm

Based upon reported cases, the estimated frequency of clinically apparent liver injury due to kava is less than 1:1,000,000 daily doses.

 

[Zaphod]

I'm in Phoenix, and my mother in law just told my wife she saw something on the news about how kava is going to cause me liver damage. Now I know where she saw it, hah!

In other news, I've had multiple liver tests done and have come away clean each time. I'm tired of saying the same thing over and over again, so I'll leave this here for anyone that stumbles upon it:
https://livertox.nih.gov/KavaKava.htm

The problem I see is (1) you are preaching to the choir (2) if you were to preach to masses everyone would go yeah but your not a doctor (even with supporting information). I think we need to get an MD on board who can intelligently speak "kava" so that he or she can point to the same studies when these news articles routinely come up. Or if there was a good association then a journalist could easily contact them for a response. Right now I am not sure there is anyone well enough known in the kava industry for them to go to. Almost now every article I see on K@, there is a rebuttal from the American K@ Association. They even state on their website:
"The Association maintains one of the top legal firms in the country, an experienced lobbying team, and a public relations firm – all of which are working to push back efforts to prohibit the sales and use of natural K@."

So like or hate K@ itself I feel like their ability to rebut unsubstantiated allegations is much better than kava. Maybe we don't need it, since no one is getting addicted to kava and no one is dying of liver failure...but it couldn't hurt to have more advocacy.

 

[The Kap'n]

Maybe we don't need it, since no one is getting addicted to kava and no one is dying of liver failure...but it couldn't hurt to have more advocacy.

I'd like to pause on this for a moment, as I feel you've probably hit on a rather major point.




I agree 100% with you that we need a resident MD that is well versed in kava. We had a pharmacist here for a while and I think she still drops in from time to time, but it would absolutely be the best thing in the world if we could get a Dr on board who understood kava. In all honesty, this is just what I'm personally privy to in terms of our members, if a doctor were here and didn't make that fact known, we very well may have a doctor on board

I think the issue remains that no matter how much we collectively know and understand about Piper Methysticum, a single point of contact would be better. Now, the next problem would be finding someone who was willing to be that for kava. Just taking a quick glance back over the years really makes me cringe when thinking of serving someone up to the masses when it comes to kava discussions. Will they even have time to debate the weekend rxlist warrior who thinks they have all the answers? On reddit I've seen quite a few people jump on and profess to know everything about kava that they possibly could, but then refer to it as "kava kava" and "bad for your liver".

 

[Alia]

I'd like to pause on this for a moment, as I feel you've probably hit on a rather major point.




I agree 100% with you that we need a resident MD that is well versed in kava. We had a pharmacist here for a while and I think she still drops in from time to time, but it would absolutely be the best thing in the world if we could get a Dr on board who understood kava. In all honesty, this is just what I'm personally privy to in terms of our members, if a doctor were here and didn't make that fact known, we very well may have a doctor on board

I think the issue remains that no matter how much we collectively know and understand about Piper Methysticum, a single point of contact would be better. Now, the next problem would be finding someone who was willing to be that for kava. Just taking a quick glance back over the years really makes me cringe when thinking of serving someone up to the masses when it comes to kava discussions. Will they even have time to debate the weekend rxlist warrior who thinks they have all the answers? On reddit I've seen quite a few people jump on and profess to know everything about kava that they possibly could, but then refer to it as "kava kava" and "bad for your liver".

The problem of countering these negative claims from MD's, and Media who report it, is mutiplied / blocked by many obstacles. Getting contact information, will they listen, read or even reply, ... will the same Media who reported this also report the much needed "resident MD that is well versed in kava"? The Association for Hawaiian 'Awa wrote Dr. Ruha and offered Studies, Scientific papers, links to update her on the "liver issue" Traditional Kava Beverage' different than pills/extracts, etc. But is it in her best interest to retract or even correct what she has said? And what about the Pacific Island cultures who have so much love and respect and even sanctity for a beverage they have consumed for thousands of years? Labled a "Dietary Supplement" and vilified by some in other Nations and cultures. Probably the most open to listening is the same media who reported the Story in the 1st place. But, again, who speaks?

 

[SelfBiasResistor]

This is exactly where kava needs a strong association/trade group with MDs on the board to rebut these outdated studies and opinions. I must say our herbal friends on the other side do a much better job...

I've pointed this out many times but the kava community doesn't have much interest in it. Instead years have been spent dividing the community while spreading the idea that most of the products on the market are in fact dangerous which is counter productive.

So like or hate K@ itself I feel like their ability to rebut unsubstantiated allegations is much better than kava.

The American K@ Association has been successful in the fight to keep that plant legal because they have leadership that understands American politics and have done a good job of working with advisers and scientists to respond to the allegations from the DEA and the pseudoscience being done by the FDA. It helps to have science on their side but even more important are the many K@ users that are willing to donate their time and money. Losing access to medicine or the ability to stay off of opiates is a big deal to a lot of people.

Maybe we don't need it, since no one is getting addicted to kava and no one is dying of liver failure...but it couldn't hurt to have more advocacy.

People aren't getting addicted to kava but what happens when and if people die of liver failure with no known cause and their family reports they were drinking kava which then gets blamed. When the masses find out about kava it won't be long til it's mixed with alcohol and anything mixed with alcohol becomes a problem. Even if there is no proof that it's harmful there will inevitably be people that want it taken off the market if it's declared a "contributing factor" to liver injury or death. As more kava bars begin to pop up there'll be more scrutiny (as evident from this news story). Being compared to benzos and alcohol won't be helpful either. Then there is the pharmaceutical industry that could take aim at the plant. If they want to sell prescription KL extracts at some point they'll need to get the plant taken off the market so people can't source their own medicine cheaper and safer. The push to ban K@ started in 2016 to pave the way for the upcoming pain medication that is a modified version of one the plants alkaloids and of course it will not sell well if people can buy the plant material and self treat themselves.

 

[kasa_balavu]

But, again, who speaks?

Maybe we should set up a GoFundMe and all chip in to send someone from Kavaforums to medical school

 

[TheKavaFlow]

The problem I see is (1) you are preaching to the choir (2) if you were to preach to masses everyone would go yeah but your not a doctor (even with supporting information). I think we need to get an MD on board who can intelligently speak "kava" so that he or she can point to the same studies when these news articles routinely come up. Or if there was a good association then a journalist could easily contact them for a response. Right now I am not sure there is anyone well enough known in the kava industry for them to go to. Almost now every article I see on K@, there is a rebuttal from the American K@ Association. They even state on their website:
"The Association maintains one of the top legal firms in the country, an experienced lobbying team, and a public relations firm – all of which are working to push back efforts to prohibit the sales and use of natural K@."

So like or hate K@ itself I feel like their ability to rebut unsubstantiated allegations is much better than kava. Maybe we don't need it, since no one is getting addicted to kava and no one is dying of liver failure...but it couldn't hurt to have more advocacy.

Agreed on all points. I just wanted to ensure anyone who stumbled upon this thread via Google or other means, who sees a video like that, had immediate access to legitimate information in this thread or any other that I've seen with similar misinformation.

 

[Intrepidus_dux]

I thought Dr. Lebott was a doctor for kava, or does he not qualify since he doesn't actively engage with media or some other reasons?

 

[Zaphod]

I thought Dr. Lebott was a doctor for kava, or does he not qualify since he doesn't actively engage with media or some other reasons?

No doubt Dr. Lebot is a great resource on the science of kava but I was thinking Medical Doctor specifically to counter the liver claims. In addition, Dr. Lebot is not that well known and outside the sphere of US pharma politics. If there was an association with adequate funding that could call on a Dr. to rebut claims when journalists called I think a lot of this stuff could get squashed. In addition, if the association had a knowledgeable law firm that it could call upon when small kava bar owners, sellers, vendors etc find themselves faced with erroneous regulations trying to shut them down it could also help.