"Kava was shown to reduce the proliferation of androgen (testosterone) receptors (maybe)"

[VictoriousSpoon]

A brief background on me: I have been lifting weights/played sports for most of my life, very lean, and am health conscious about my dietary nutrition

In the past 6 weeks, since I began consuming kava 3-7 days/week, I have noticed an increase in my adiposity (body fat), as well as a decrease in physical strength, libido, spontaneity, and the desire to leave home to socialize, practice/play sports, or run errands.

Initially, I chalked this up to merely being stress related. However, after adjusting my diet a few weeks in to lean out (I am very in tune with my body and how I eat), I was surprised at the lack of progress in shedding the new found fat.

I don't weigh myself often, as I find it to be an arbitrary number for most purposes and rely more on a mirror.

Today, after a visit at the doctor's office, before being weighed, I was fully expecting to be heavier, with all this extra fat, but I found I was 2 pounds LIGHTER, meaning I have not only gained fat, but lost substantial muscle mass as well. After learning this, and noticing how my strength levels have gone down over the past month, I scoured pubmed.

I came across this study: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3276576/

In a nutshell, the findings indicate kavalactones down regulate Androgen* Receptor** (AR) expression. These receptors are how testosterone elicits most of its physiological effects in the body, including promoting strength and muscle mass, reduction of body fat, energy, mood etc.

This came as quite a shock to me; I assumed kava wouldn't hamper my fitness levels like alcohol does. But looks like I was wrong, based on my personal anecdotal experience. I am going to stop kava cold turkey and see what happens; if I revert to my previous physical shape, I'll know kava was the culprit.

This is quite a bummer, I was starting to really like kava. Maybe I will just have to save it for infrequent occasions from now on.

However for people that have no concerns about maintaining a specific level of fitness, this is all irrelevant. Additionally, this could also be a great effect for men suffering from BPH, high risk of prostate cancer, or experiencing earlier stages of male pattern baldness.

I also realize there are athletes out there that consume kava, (like the Aluball creator), but just cos they consume it, doesn't mean what they're doing is optimal or isn't hindering their physicality (if they're consuming it frequently). Oscar De La Hoya lived off McDonalds cheeseburgers for the first 2/3 of his career.

*Androgens are a class of hormones associated with "masculinization," such as testosterone, DHT, androstenedione etc.
**Androgen Receptors are the little protein structures within a cell, that act as "sockets" for androgenic hormone molecules to bind to, in order to elicit RNA transcription and impart their effects.

 

[Mo'iety]

So, I'm definitely not claiming that kava couldn't have contributed at all to what you've experienced, but there are some problems extrapolating that study to your conclusions. By all means, you can stop drinking kava, drink it less frequently, or keep up the kava routine as you see fit. But, onto the study:

The methods involved dripping kava extract on prostate cancer cells in vitro. Obviously we aren't a clump of prostate cancer cells in a petri dish. So the physiology of how kava affects testosterone and androgen receptors throughout the body could be very different, and we can't assume the same mechanism would occur in all tissues. Also, flavokavain B was the most potent constituent, but FKB is present in only low concentrations in noble kava root, and even lower concentrations, nearly negligible, in kava beverage prepared from those roots, since it's not readily extracted by water. And that's a good thing, since some studies suggest FKB might be problematic to the liver in high amounts.

Bottom line, we can't be sure if kava is causing you to have low testosterone, or AR dysregulation, and it's possible that neither of those is the cause of your issues at all. But definitely experiment with no/less kava and see what happens. And I highly doubt that kava every once in a while (vs everyday) could have an impact, so if you do enjoy kava, perhaps you could keep drinking it as a special occasion.

Edit: I'll add that the effect on prostate cancer is seen in vivo, in epidemiological studies. Fijian and ni-Vanuatu men have very low rates of prostate cancer. And it's quite likely that kava might be part of the reason.

 

[VictoriousSpoon]

So, I'm definitely not claiming that kava couldn't have contributed at all to what you've experienced, but there are some problems extrapolating that study to your conclusions. By all means, you can stop drinking kava, drink it less frequently, or keep up the kava routine as you see fit. But, onto the study:

The methods involved dripping kava extract on prostate cancer cells in vitro. Obviously we aren't a clump of prostate cancer cells in a petri dish. So the physiology of how kava affects testosterone and androgen receptors throughout the body could be very different, and we can't assume the same mechanism would occur in all tissues. Also, flavokavain B was the most potent constituent, but FKB is present in only low concentrations in noble kava root, and even lower concentrations, nearly negligible, in kava beverage prepared from those roots, since it's not readily extracted by water. And that's a good thing, since some studies suggest FKB might be problematic to the liver in high amounts.

Bottom line, we can't be sure if kava is causing you to have low testosterone, or AR dysregulation, and it's possible that neither of those is the cause of your issues at all. But definitely experiment with no/less kava and see what happens. And I highly doubt that kava every once in a while (vs everyday) could have an impact, so if you do enjoy kava, perhaps you could keep drinking it as a special occasion.

Edit: I'll add that the effect on prostate cancer is seen in vivo, in epidemiological studies. Fijian and ni-Vanuatu men have very low rates of prostate cancer. And it's quite likely that kava might be part of the reason.

Touché.

However you may have missed a few sections (it's easy to miss parts when skiming, especially from a phone)- the research included grafting human prostate cells into rodents ("Treatment of patient-derived PCa tumor xenograftmodel" section; in vivo, allbeit in mice). The majority of research in previous decades used to guage the androgenic properties of synthetic androgens, as well as efficacy of androgen blockers, heavily relied on rodents, specifically measuring the effect on prostate and/or smooth muscle tissue cells, so still relevant imo.

The in-vivo reasearch also found desmethoxyyangonin (aka 5, 6-dehydrokawain), which is prevalent in nobles, to also be the most suppressive; it stated " Among the kavalactones, 5, 6-dehydrokawain is the most potent agent in inhibiting the growth of PCa cell lines (Figure 2 and Table 1).

The IC50 table reflects that Kava Extract, along with isolated Desmethoxyyangonin, Kavain, Yangonin etc. were assessed in their individual effect on PC AR mediated growth inhibition. EDIT: And that all of these isolated kavalactones, caused AR inhibition to varying degrees, in-vivo.

It is good to hear FKB is low in noble kavas, it is something I am not familiar with.

What we do know at this point in time, is that all endogenous androgens are active in all tissues that have AR's. I don't think, or at least haven't seen anything to suggest it's lowering my T-levels, but I do find it highly plausible it is impairing the effects of testosterone itself at the AR.

I do appreciate the post, but I'm still very suspicious of kava. I want also say, on the days I have consumed kava over the last 6 weeks, I have consumed between 2-7 table spoons worth for each day, in divided doses, so its a pretty substantial amount. For the past week, I have only consumeed 2 table spoons per day, but I still havent noticed progress.

I'll see what happens in the following 6 weeks.
Once I'm back in shape, I'll try it out again- only trial and error can tell me how much/how often i can get away with it.

 

[verticity]

This is interesting. The headline phrasing "kava inhibits testosterone" might be a bit misleading because that implies: 1) that kava lowers testosterone levels and 2) that this result has been proven and reproduced clinically, neither of which is the case, as clearly you are well aware from reading the article. My understanding is that in certain cancers, such as breast and prostate cancer, involve the tumors expressing large numbers of androgen receptors, which are thought to be involved in the disease process. That's why Lupron, a testosterone blocker, is prescribed for prostate cancer. So the purpose of this research was to identify other drugs that might be able to attack the excess androgen receptors on the cancer cell directly, without lowering testosterone. And it is certainly possible that such a drug, if taken systemically, could have side effects that might be similar to testosterone deficiency, but I think it is far from proven that common side effects of kava, of which lethargy can be one, have anything to do with that and not the other neurological mechanisms (calcium channel blockade, GABA activity, etc.) that we already know about. But it is an interesting hypothesis. I think a more accurate summary would be something like "Kava was shown to reduce the proliferation of androgen (testosterone) receptors in certain cancer cells. The applicability of these findings to androgen receptor mediated signalling in healthy humans drinking kava beverage and any associated side effects is unknown and requires more research.." although I'll admit that is too long to fit in the tile...

 

[Krunkie McKrunkface]

My testosterone level is zero and I haven't noticed kava lowering that any.

 

[VictoriousSpoon]

This is interesting. The headline phrasing "kava inhibits testosterone" might be a bit misleading because that implies: 1) that kava lowers testosterone levels and 2) that this result has been proven and reproduced clinically, neither of which is the case, as clearly you are well aware from reading the article. My understanding is that in certain cancers, such as breast and prostate cancer, involve the tumors expressing large numbers of androgen receptors, which are thought to be involved in the disease process. That's why Lupron, a testosterone blocker, is prescribed for prostate cancer. So the purpose of this research was to identify other drugs that might be able to attack the excess androgen receptors on the cancer cell directly, without lowering testosterone. And it is certainly possible that such a drug, if taken systemically, could have side effects that might be similar to testosterone deficiency, but I think it is far from proven that common side effects of kava, of which lethargy can be one, have anything to do with that and not the other neurological mechanisms (calcium channel blockade, GABA activity, etc.) that we already know about. But it is an interesting hypothesis. I think a more accurate summary would be something like "Kava was shown to reduce the proliferation of androgen (testosterone) receptors in certain cancer cells. The applicability of these findings to androgen receptor mediated signalling in healthy humans drinking kava beverage and any associated side effects is unknown and requires more research.." although I'll admit that is too long to fit in the tile...

I agree it's a bad title open to misinterpretation- I made the thread in haste. The intended context was that kavalactones were shown to inhibit testosterone's mechanism of action at the androgen receptor. I later tried to change the title, but realised its too late.

Off the top of my head IIRC (I was a much better biology nerd uni years), it's the fact that DHT(prostate)/estrogen(breast tissue) raise IGF-1 levels in the corresponding tissues, that exacerbates the proliferation of cancerous cells.

I did a quick lookup on lupron- it doesn't work by blocking testosterone, like an anti-androgen, but rather overloading ones' pituitary/endocrine system causing testosterone (men) and estrogen production (in women) to shut down; in other words it hampers your body's ability to produce steroid hormones.

Re: my statement, for sure it requires lots more research in a controlled setting. however for reasons of practicality, I'm just going to extrapolate from the existing research, and anecdotal experience that I can observe.

I am dubious its as potent as something like a competitive inhibitor, but I do think its reasonable to say it does posses some AR inhibition qualities, to what degree is anyone's guess.

 

[verticity]

Re: my statement, for sure it requires lots more research in a controlled setting. however for reasons of practicality, I'm just going to extrapolate from the existing research, and anecdotal experience that I can observe.

Yeah, I mean ultimately each of us makes our own decision based on our lifestyle and the benefits vs the negative effects that we experience from kava. I can definitely see how some people with a super athletic lifestyles might decide that kava is more of a hindrance than a help for them. And that's OK of course. It's not for everyone under all circumstances.

 

[kasa_balavu]

Perhaps a mod can correct the title.

 

[kastom_lif]

My testosterone level is zero and I haven't noticed kava lowering that any.

Plus you were still cranking out push ups live on last weekend’s kava circle.

 

[Krunkie McKrunkface]

I agree it's a bad title open to misinterpretation- I made the thread in haste. The intended context was that kavalactones were shown to inhibit testosterone's mechanism of action at the androgen receptor. I later tried to change the title, but realised its too late.

Off the top of my head IIRC (I was a much better biology nerd uni years), it's the fact that DHT(prostate)/estrogen(breast tissue) raise IGF-1 levels in the corresponding tissues, that exacerbates the proliferation of cancerous cells.

I did a quick lookup on lupron- it doesn't work by blocking testosterone, like an anti-androgen, but rather overloading ones' pituitary/endocrine system causing testosterone (men) and estrogen production (in women) to shut down; in other words it hampers your body's ability to produce steroid hormones.

Re: my statement, for sure it requires lots more research in a controlled setting. however for reasons of practicality, I'm just going to extrapolate from the existing research, and anecdotal experience that I can observe.

I am dubious its as potent as something like a competitive inhibitor, but I do think its reasonable to say it does posses some AR inhibition qualities, to what degree is anyone's guess.

I am also on arebaterone acetate for my ADT

 

[Krunkie McKrunkface]

Plus you were still cranking out push ups live on last weekend’s kava circle.

it will only be worse this saturday

 

[VictoriousSpoon]

I am also on abiraterone acetate for my ADT

That doesn't sound fun.

While the in vivo (in vivo= in a live organism, in vitro= test tube/petri dish etc) research is limited, blueberries don't get enough press IMO for their anti-cancerous effects; they have been shown to both trigger apoptosis (programmed cell death) and inhibit proliferation of cancerous cells in multiple studies.

They already have been shown to have other remarkable multi faceted health benefits (brain function, insulin sensitivity, blood pressure, anti aging etc.), so couldn't hurt to add a cup a day to your diet. My dad's stage II prostate cancer went into complete remission after having radiation therapy + making blueberries a staple; whether or not the blueberries played a role can't be said definitively, but they can't hurt.

Here's a grad student lab thesis that summarizes some of that research and the various mechanisms it helps, with a focus on breast cancer:
http://fau.digital.flvc.org/islandora/object/fau:3736/datastream/OBJ/view/Anticarcinogenic_effects_of_genistein_and_anthocyanin_extract_in_MCF-7_human_breast_cancer_cells.pdf

The blueberry stuff starts on page 7. "Anthocyanins" are the pigment antoxidants in the skin that give blueberries their color. Anthocyanins are present in other fruits as well, but blueberries are the most potent source. Costco sells some excellent frozen blueberries that taste better than the fresh organic ones IMO, very sweet.

If you do choose to add them to the diet, don't consume them with dairy in the same meal- dairy proteins have been shown to bind to the anthocyanins and effectively inhibiting absorption. You could still consume dairy, just not at the same time.

EDIT: I should have said, the lab she performed following a recap of the other research, used a combination of anthocyanin (bkueberries) and genestein (soybeans) of which the latter has anti-cancerous effects in breast cancer cells

 

[VictoriousSpoon]

( From https://books.google.com/books?id=OfbEDwAAQBAJ&pg=PA30&lpg=PA30&dq=male+pattern+baldness+in+fiji&source=bl&ots=j4e-kbxk4L&sig=ACfU3U2HNS9Rv3_N80s7NqyfIDpG7QVoyg&hl=en&ppis=_e&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjZpObFgdTnAhXhGDQIHcYYAbkQ6AEwF3oECAoQAQ#v=onepage&q=male pattern baldness in fiji&f=false")

"Regardless of age, with an incidence of pronounced baldness of 1 per cent among all adult males and of 4 per cent for a moderate condition, it is a clear indication that Fijians are not prone to loss of head hair."

Is it genetics, or kava androgen receptor downregulation? Definitely worthy of further research IMO. I couldn't find pertinent information for other kava consuming peoples. To date, outside of the prostate, there has been no research on kava's effect on androgen receptors.

EDIT:
Fiji has substantial east indian genetic influence due to indentured servitude in the 1800s

"In 1977 The Economist reported that ethnic Fijians were a minority of 255,000, in a total population of 600,000 of which fully half were of Indian descent, with the remainder Chinese, European and of mixed ancestry."

...and east indian men have substantial male pattern baldness:

"In a 2009 study documented in the International Journal of Trichology, 58% of Indian men aged 30-50 suffered from various grades of alopecia [1]. This is reasonably representative of the Indian population due to the random selection process (albeit not perfect).

In another study led by Dr Tejinder Bhatti, a hair loss specialist, 63.2% of Indian men aged 21-61 suffer from alopecia [2]. Note that the figure here may be higher since the age range was expanded.

Alopecia is scarily prevalent even among young Indian men. In 2011, 46% of Indian men aged 21-31 have alopecia [3]."

With such a substantial percentage of Fijian men having full east indian ancestry, yet such a low incidence of male pattern baldness amongst the Fijian male population, methinks kava is definitely influencing something here.

 

[verticity]

( From https://books.google.com/books?id=OfbEDwAAQBAJ&pg=PA30&lpg=PA30&dq=male+pattern+baldness+in+fiji&source=bl&ots=j4e-kbxk4L&sig=ACfU3U2HNS9Rv3_N80s7NqyfIDpG7QVoyg&hl=en&ppis=_e&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjZpObFgdTnAhXhGDQIHcYYAbkQ6AEwF3oECAoQAQ#v=onepage&q=male pattern baldness in fiji&f=false")

"Regardless of age, with an incidence of pronounced baldness of 1 per cent among all adult males and of 4 per cent for a moderate condition, it is a clear indication that Fijians are not prone to loss of head hair."

Is it genetics, or kava androgen receptor downregulation? Definitely worthy of further research IMO. I couldn't find pertinent information for other kava consuming peoples. To date, outside of the prostate, there has been no research on kava's effect on androgen receptors.

EDIT:
Fiji has substantial east indian genetic influence due to indentured servitude in the 1800s

"In 1977 The Economist reported that ethnic Fijians were a minority of 255,000, in a total population of 600,000 of which fully half were of Indian descent, with the remainder Chinese, European and of mixed ancestry."

...and east indian men have substantial male pattern baldness:

"In a 2009 study documented in the International Journal of Trichology, 58% of Indian men aged 30-50 suffered from various grades of alopecia [1]. This is reasonably representative of the Indian population due to the random selection process (albeit not perfect).

In another study led by Dr Tejinder Bhatti, a hair loss specialist, 63.2% of Indian men aged 21-61 suffer from alopecia [2]. Note that the figure here may be higher since the age range was expanded.

Alopecia is scarily prevalent even among young Indian men. In 2011, 46% of Indian men aged 21-31 have alopecia [3]."

With such a substantial percentage of Fijian men having full east indian ancestry, yet such a low incidence of male pattern baldness amongst the Fijian male population, methinks kava is definitely influencing something here.

I'm very skeptical, and agree that research would be needed to prove that kava prevents baldness. The full text of that book (a fairly cringey anthropology text from the 50's) makes it clear it's describing native Fijian people, not Indo-Fijians. So it could just be genetic. To really address this hypothesis you'd need to do studies which controlled for variables such as ethnicity and family history of hair loss.
https://www.gutenberg.org/files/39140/39140-h/39140-h.htm

 

[kasa_balavu]

The full text of that book (a fairly cringey anthropology text from the 50's) makes it clear it's describing native Fijian people, not Indo-Fijians.

Until 2014, "Fijian" was a label and identity belonging exclusively to indigenous Fijians. These days that label (somewhat controversially) applies to every citizen regardless of ethnicity. Indigenous Fijians are now called iTaukei and those formerly referred to as Indo-Fijians are now called the unwieldy "Fijians of Indian Descent".

 

[VictoriousSpoon]

Thanks for clearing that up gents; I find this very interesting. I hope that there's future research conducted on kava's other potential effects in the future.

 

[FYS]

I think some of the other users have covered this pretty well and, as said, ultimately the decision is yours to make but I'll add a bit of anecdotal evidence here. (I'd provide lab work but don't feel comfortable doing so)

I have been using for quite some time now as has my younger brother and we are both pretty heavy into lifting and have been most of our lives; before that we both played sports. In that time I have never noticed it having negative impacts on mass or strength levels nor have I experienced any issues while bulking or cutting. Its pretty great for post-workout as well IMO.

Personally I don't think its the kava but I understand why its the first thing you would jump to and its easy to figure out if it is indeed the culprit. I'd be interested to hear how things progress from here but, in my experience, it hasn't been an issue.

 

[VictoriousSpoon]

I think some of the other users have covered this pretty well and, as said, ultimately the decision is yours to make but I'll add a bit of anecdotal evidence here. (I'd provide lab work but don't feel comfortable doing so)

I have been using for quite some time now as has my younger brother and we are both pretty heavy into lifting and have been most of our lives; before that we both played sports. In that time I have never noticed it having negative impacts on mass or strength levels nor have I experienced any issues while bulking or cutting. Its pretty great for post-workout as well IMO.

Personally I don't think its the kava but I understand why its the first thing you would jump to and its easy to figure out if it is indeed the culprit. I'd be interested to hear how things progress from here but, in my experience, it hasn't been an issue.

If you don't mind me asking, what is the most you've consumed weekly for an extended uninterrupted period of time? (ie 2-3 weeks or more)

I can say that I have started leaning out and my strength levels have started climbing since taking a break from kava- the difference is far too big to be placebo.

The effect on my strength and muscle mass has been very significant for both (strength levels plummeted by ~15-20%) , but the effect on abdominal fat has probably been the most dramatic.

Re: lab work- I don't blame you for not wanting to take before and after muscle biopsies to have any androgen receptor deviations meaasured. Aside from being extremely costly and far outside the realm of anything insurance would cover, even if minute, you can't get those donated muscle cells back.

 

[FYS]

25g/450ml (4x150ml shells) 1-2x/day 7 days a week is pretty average for me.

I was speaking more about my test levels and not a muscle biopsy. lol. As I said, I've personally seen no negative impact nor has my brother or any other gym rat we've turn on to awa. That doesn't mean you aren't but, again, that's my anecdotal evidence based on many years of lifting in tandem with awa usage. You've gotta do what's best for you; I was just sharing my personal experience. Bula!

 

[VictoriousSpoon]

25g/450ml (4x150ml shells) 1-2x/day 7 days a week is pretty average for me.

I was speaking more about my test levels and not a muscle biopsy. lol. As I said, I've personally seen no negative impact nor has my brother or any other gym rat we've turn on to awa. That doesn't mean you aren't but, again, that's my anecdotal evidence based on many years of lifting in tandem with awa usage. You've gotta do what's best for you; I was just sharing my personal experience. Bula!

Another possible mechanism kava could impair physicality, would be interfering with protein synthesis due to its anti-inflammitory properties. We know from research with NSAID's and Vitamin C, that anti-inflammitories directly inhibit/impair muscle protein synthesis and other adaptations to exercise such as mitochondrial density, because localized inflammation of the muscles is what sets off the signaling machinery for adaptation. Without it, there is no adaptation; so while tempting, I would save it for the day following a workout, not the same day.