How to get the desired reaction out of kava...

[ThePiper]

eThe last few days of kava drinking have been very hit or miss, and yesterday I pounded three tbs, didn't feel much of anything after 40 minutes, so I had half a serving of instant green from BKH (everything I'm drinking is BKH) and I immediately began to feel very very nauseous, and after several minutes of burping I pretty much forced myself to puke because I felt I needed to badly. There was no good feelings and the night was pretty much wasted, I immediately went to bed at 9pm. The day before that 2tbs of kava just left me lethargic. At the beginning of the week I was getting great anxiety relief and euphoria off of any amount I chose to drink (always conservative) What could be causing this poor reaction? Is it because I usually have a pinch of instant before lunch to take the edge off, ruining me for the day? Is my chemistry just not cut out for regular kava drinking? I've only been partaking regularly for about three weeks, and the dermopathy and other effects I'm getting from these low amounts doesn't exactly sem worth it, except once in a blue moon. Whats worse is on these days when kava fails me, my anxiety can get through the roof, and I fall behind on my duties because I go to bed early or feel like crap in general. Any advice is appreciated.

 

[infraredz]

I've found that using kava more than once a day and can have negative effects like you described.

I'm guessing that you are beyond the reverse tolerance. If so, what was the dosage you were using the week that was going well?

Could be something as simple as you are using too much.

 

[ThePiper]

It's not really a week that was going well, it's more random. Like, 2 good days, 2 bad days, one great day, two more bad days, etc. I'm going to stick to one dose of kava today, so we shall see how that goes. It has also just occurred to me that the pre-lunch kava might be mucking up my digestion, leading to an inadequately empty stomach even 5 hours later? I'm not sure.

 

[infraredz]

Yep, that's definitely going to affect your results if you are indeed drinking kava on an empty stomach vs non-empty stomach.

5hrs is a long time though, but depending on what you eat and your own personal physiology, it's not unheard of that gastric emptying could be delayed to the point that you are not drinking the kava on an empty stomach in the night/evening. What do you usually eat for lunch?

 

[krunkedout]

what I recommend is for you to carefully keep track of what you do on the days that are great. Everything from how much you drink, how long you space the shells apart, what you are eating, and so on and so forth. I would also recommend that you play around with your dosage and see if perhaps a higher or lower dose works better. Also, If you start to feel sick, eat a light meal and it should help settle your stomach.

 

[ThePiper]

I ate quite a bit of pizza, salad, cake... I also believe K@ can slow the process down even further, and that's something that my system has become accustomed with. I also have an incredibly high metabolism, it is impossible for me to gain weight. This makes drinking kava on an empty stomach difficult in itself because as soon as I feel the hunger pang of an empty stomach I am truly running on empty. Thanks for chiming in, krunkedout, I'll have to start keeping better tabs on my behaviors.

 

[Dan]

In my experience an empty stomach is every bit as important as the strain and quality of the kava root. My breakthrough with kava came four or so years ago when I finally figured out it was necessary to go for a good three hours or so without eating beforehand.

I'm a lifelong beanpole and have extremely high metabolism as well, but trust me it's worth it.

 

[ThePiper]

I'll be prepping my kava shortly, it'll be about 6 hours since food entered my stomach this time, and my lunch was lighter, so I'll be sure to report back. I've got my fingers crossed because this was a stressful day and I also still have obligations to meet after the session. Wish me luck.

 

[ThePiper]

I'm glad to report that there has been no negative effects, however the effect of 1tbs of Nambawan and ~3/4tbs instant green has left me with much to be desired. I have come to the conclusion that for me, daily kava use does lead to tolerance. This is the only conclusion that really makes sense at this point.

 

[sɥɐʞɐs]

you're using very small doses. i can't speak on the instant green, but 1-2 tablespoons of root is extremely low.

 

[ThePiper]

If I use much more than that I get headache, nausea, vomiting, etc. I've always been sensitive to substances. I keep seeing people taking 5 or mor tbs at a time and I just can't fathom it, the dehydration I experience already at the dose I've been taking is crazy, I've doubled my water intake (maybe 75-90 oz a day, rough estimate) but I lose most of that from the diuretic effect and still get dehydration headaches. I also can't imagine how bad dermopathy might get if I were to take much more. Like I said, last night I took about 3 tbs of nambawan with a teaspoon of instant green and I ended up vomiting, went to bed immediately, and woke up pale as a ghost and dehydrated. It does seem like there might be a connection between Nambawan and side effects, perhaps because of the fine grind? I'll try a different type next time.

 

[kavadude]

Are you straining your kava?

 

[ThePiper]

Of course. I use a very fine muslin tea strainer.

 

[ThePiper]

It should be known that these side effects were nearly non-existant when I started daily use a few weeks ago. Seems each day the anxiolytic benefit is less and the side effects magnify.

 

[Bula man!]

what I have noticed with kava is dosage is very important. Last night I used about 4 tbsp hoping it would be much better than 2 tbsp but realized that 2 felt stronger....Not sure why that is but just experiment and your body will tell you what is right for you.

 

[infraredz]

Like you may know with that other substance (which we try not to mention here, just FYI) sometimes "Less is More". I definitely think that there is something going on with the dosage being off and also possibly a problem with prep. 2.5 L of water a day (90 oz) is really a lot of water so you souldn't have effects from dehydration. That being said, how often do you urinate and what color is it?

Any liver or kidney issues run in your family?

Also, just to throw this out there, tolerance isn't really possible from what we know currently (scientifically) but also from centuries of use and anecdote. All I'm tryin' to say is, don't give up! Keep at it and keep us posted with any experiences or problems and we all would be happy to help.

 

[ThePiper]

I've seen some anecdotes around the net that suggest tolerance may be possible with repeated daily use. Or maybe not tolerance, but diminishing enjoyable effects while physical reaction remains present? More effect doesn't always mean more enjoyment. Anyway the amount of instant green I had this evening would've had me grinning my ass off 2 weeks ago. I'm not 100% sure which day I took off recently, but come to think of it I believe it was Sunday, and I know for a fact I felt good from my kava on Monday... I guess there's only one way to be sure, I'll take tomorrow off and see how Saturday's kava drinking goes. I have no reason to give up kava because it has been consistently great until I began daily use, this I am sure of. I've had it occasionally for the last two years and always had euphoria and other desirable effects.

Perhaps the diminished pleasure and good mood comes from some kind of negative effect on dopamine? I suffer depression as well as anxiety, and I notice along with the dysphoria (guess you could call it that) I get from daily kava there is usually a lack of motivation, I.E. I will just immediately want to end the day. In fact I believe most of wwhat makes me happy in daily life is the pleasure associated with motivation (making connections, intellectual conversation, making things) Maybe there is a lactone that is building up in my system that is messing with my rewrd system as I continue to build it up every day? just thinking out loud here.

 

[infraredz]

I would definitely agree that your depression and anxiety can have a MASSIVE effect on the perception of kava. I speak of that from personal experience.

Check out the "Set and Setting" thread for some possibly helpful info regarding getting the most out of your grog. I've found that to also be very important.

Kava does have an effect on dopamine, but not nearly potent enough (IMO) to have any significant effect and long half-lives of lactones would actually (most likely) cause an increase in the perceived effect. That being said, with the stuff going on in your head beyond any outside substances, I can't say it's impossible. I think that the GABAergic effects are what are causing the lethargy. Just like alcohol (although in a much less pronounced way), kava can have a significant effect on my mood and cause emotional lability. For example, if I am feeling depressed, sad or generally not well, sometimes kava can actually make me feel worse.

But hey, everyone is different so there is no definitive truth here.

 

[ThePiper]

I drank for nearly 2.5 years straight in highschool, I was never a melancholy drunk though, I just used it to feel normal, (stabilize my mood) weird as it sounds. I have had extensive issues with exacerbated depression and poor motivation during a brief benzodiazepine treatment though.

 

[infraredz]

All that GABAergic stuff could very well have caused some damage and GABAergic substances have been known to exacerbate depression oddly. I've had a lot of clinical experience where agitated, suicidal, violent patients who were given benzos would get even worse...

Could just be that you don't respond well to GABA-b substances (ethanol being a GABA-a agonist and benzos being primarily GABA-b).

What are all the strains you've tried?