A Call for a Truth and Reconciliation Discussion on the Noble vs. Tudei Controversy

[Kojo Douglas]

We've had time to process all of this, and I think it's important to reflect on what we accomplished and what we demolished during the Noble vrs. Tudei War of 2015-2016.

My feeling is that several vendors are no longer with us because of some of the "witch hunt" aspects of the controversy. Obviously, there were some who totally and undeniably benefitted.

In Hawaii, Isa is a sought after Kava that many Hawaiians purposefully seek out. It does things that many more soft, "Noble" Kavas can't do. I seek it out from time to time from Vanuatu, PNG, and Hawaii. It was great to have more access to it - now we have less.

That being said, because of some health concerns (which, to my knowledge, are still unfounded) and undesirable side effects (which I think come from both sides of the spectrum), the result of the Noble vrs. Tudei war of 2015-2016 has been a collapse in much of the Kava market. Now we have less choices. Plain and simple.

So I'd like to discuss what really happened, how it ended the way it did, and what the hell happened to the people who were involved. I have made my position quite opaque, bouncing between sides.

My own conclusion is that we should be able to buy and enjoy labeled Isa and Tudei Kavas. We shouldn't blacklist vendors who decide to serve that market, and we shouldn't go to the ends of the earth trying to "expose" vendors who have accidentally labeled their Kavas "Noble" when they might not be.

 

[Kojo Douglas]

Another topic to discuss is whether there was any market manipulation here. When this first came up, I was accused of being a conspiracy theorist for pointing out that there were certain "alliances." I was pounced on and punished harshly for some of my observations. Now, I don't want the discussion to take that kind of turn - so please don't accuse me of it. But we have seen a lot of Kava vendors either disappear from our community or literally close up shop. And then we have seen others expand and endlessly benefit. So my initial observations kind of played out the way I expected them too.

We really need to figure out what happened, why, and how we can restore some of these relationships.

 

[Kojo Douglas]

This is how people will probably react to this thread:

 

[Squanch72]

Is there an inner circle maybe, maybe not. Who knows. I believe it should just be labeled as tudei if someone does sell it. What I wish is the spiking would stop but I guess that is impossible with the Vanuatu supply chain. I have eased up my own views on tudei because I have had some I didn't like and some I really did enjoy. But I don't think it is for newbies and should be labeled.
Like a great Jayhawk's lyric goes:
There's a little bit of truth in every lie

 

[Kojo Douglas]

Look, there were clear distortions in the Kava market when True Kava started their testing and labeling campaign. I know a lot of these vendors personally. Some of them got overwhelmed and quit the industry. Some of them turned their back on the wider community. Some embraced the True Kava movement. There were very few winners in this whole thing.

I think we just need to get down to brass tacks and figure out what happened. But we'll need honesty and transparency.

 

[GussWest]

As a newbie to the world of kava, I have found it difficult to understand the nuances of this historical controversy/discussion. I appreciate you starting the thread and I hope some good insights will come from it!

Having had, what I believe to be, tudei-spiked kava early in my kava career; I am in favor of transparency and labeling. I think everyone should be able to buy and drink what they want, but don't sell me tudei when I want noble. OTOH, I would enjoy the opportunity to at least try what I know is a pure Isa if only to have another data point in my experience.

Are there any particularly informative posts on the topic? I am googling and choogling this topic at the moment.

Do the indigenous kava-drinking peoples of Oceania drink tudei kava? My understanding is they do so rarely and carefully.

Welcome to the East Side, Doc!

 

[sɥɐʞɐs]

I don't see that the witch-hunt "Tudei-enlightenment" has made vendors fail, I've been buying kava online since the early 2000's, as have you, and there's more kava varieties and vendors available than ever before...only less tudei.

Even before all this, when there were only a handful of vendors, many of them were having a hard time staying afloat. Companies falling off now are more likely doing so because every kava newbie that comes along wants to start their own kava company. Although kava's popularity is growing, it isn't so popular that it will support this influx of new vendors that are constantly popping up.

This call for action on Tudei spiking and transparency didn't come from us anyway, it came directly from the government of Vanuatu. We support it because it's the right thing to do for the future of kava, people's health and because we deserve to get the product we actually paid for. It's technically illegal to even export it all from Vanuatu. Their rule, not ours.

Tudei warnings aren't new either, it was always warned against even in my earliest days of kava purchasing. The aspect of tudei that you enjoy is the higher concentrations of DHK & DHM (and possibly Methysticin), not the greatly increased amounts of FK-B...Just drink kavas with 245xxx chemotypes and high overall kavalactone % and it's nearly the same thing.

If anything, the real problem is that we don't all have access to strong, fresh, nakamal-grade kava...you would never need anything else.

​

 

[Kojo Douglas]

Now, I see that as a talking point. It comes from the European ban on Kava that resulted from poisonous concoctions - not from Isa. But True Kava always uses that as the first line of defense - "the government of Vanuatu banned Tudei exports." Indeed, Vanuatu did ban Tudei exports but it was because they had to do something. My impression is that the lines are really blurred between different varieties of Kava, and that some of the negative effects of Tudei exist along a spectrum that can be found in Noble Kavas as well.

For example, I've gotten sick off of Hanakapi'Ai and I didn't really overdo it. Should that variety of Kava be banned?

 

[sɥɐʞɐs]

Transient sickness, no. Damage to your vital organs, different story.

 

[Kojo Douglas]

Damage to your vital organs? Show me the evidence.

 

[Kojo Douglas]

That's exactly the kind of rhetoric that will lead to a total Kava ban. There is no evidence that any Kava causes damage to your vital organs. So if we are walking around saying that "the Isa or Tudei" variety does, then the FDA will play it safe and propose a total ban. After all, they can't control or regulate what gets put into shipping containers.

 

[Squanch72]

Really damage to organs? That is important of course. I always thought that was from leaves and above ground stems.

 

[GussWest]

http://kava.guru/getting-started/emerging-controversy-around-tudei-kava/

This review article seems to conclude that traditional prep cold water extraction of Tudei does not contain dangerous levels of Flavokavain B, the putative hepatotoxin. Interesting.

 

[Kojo Douglas]

Yep @GussWest

 

[verticity]

This is how people will probably react to this thread:

Hey, how'd you hack my webcam?

 

[Kojo Douglas]

Traditionally prepared Tudei is safe. It might have undesirable next day effects, and like anything else should be consumed in moderation.

 

[sɥɐʞɐs]

Damage to your vital organs? Show me the evidence.

It's been gone over so much, we've quoted so many research papers so many times...I don't care to completely rehash it all. But in short FK-B has been proven to be toxic to cells, it has also been proven to exist in several times the concentration within Tudei plants than noble. I'm not going to dig up all the links again but feel free to look around. Good news, I've also read that supplementing with NAC may completely protect you.

My statement about transient sickness vs vital organ injury was not directed specifically to Tudei kava.
It is a general statement not specific to kava, in this case, you said you got sick off Hanakapi'ai...so what I'm saying is, if the sickness was transient then it shouldn't be banned, if it was sickness because of organ toxicity, then that's a different story. I can get sick from any kava, I've also been sick after eating too much ice cream or lasagne....that's much different than getting sick after eating too many apple seeds.

And by the way, I never have said or will say, that tudei kava definitely causes death or body injury.

 

[verticity]

Look, there were clear distortions in the Kava market when True Kava started their testing and labeling campaign. ...

Yes. On the one hand you could say the market is now less "free" in the Libertarian sense of being able to sell anything you wanted with any labeling, regardless of it's accuracy. When True Kava started it's watchdog activities, I prefer to think of it as the market became safer for consumers. Now when you buy kava, you can verify if it is noble or not, and vendors are more likely to test their kava before selling it. IMO that is nothing but a good thing for us consumers, for verdors, and for kava producing nations.

 

[verticity]

...I am googling and choogling this topic at the moment. ...

"choogling"?

 

[Squanch72]

Yes. On the one hand you could say the market is now less "free" in the Libertarian sense of being able to sell anything you wanted with any labeling, regardless of it's accuracy. When True Kava started it's watchdog activities, I prefer to think of it as the market became safer for consumers. Now when you buy kava, you can verify if it is noble or not, and vendors are more likely to test their kava before selling it. IMO that is nothing but a good thing for us consumers, for verdors, and for kava producing nations.

If your samples get returned. I felt bad for the guy from Fiji trying to start up. He most likely had noble since it is Fijian and had the test done from the local agency but they don't do the noble test I believe. And he was afraid to do the acetone test himself as people might think that is shady. So that is my worry about inner circle. And yes you can send to a lab I guess for $500 but that isn't reasonable with the low profit in Kava and to do that for all new shipments a smaller vendor receives. I do think that helps to push a smaller guy out. I don't think people know that side of things sometimes.