What's new

A Call for a Truth and Reconciliation Discussion on the Noble vs. Tudei Controversy

Gourmet Hawaiian Kava

Kava Expert
Kava Vendor
This is completely immature and asinine. I really thought you were better than this. To say "this is the trouble making that @Kavasseur likes to do" is just a childish and deplorable insult to me, to the people who have benefited from my reviews, and to the advocacy I have given to Kava for almost twenty years.

I think it is quite clear now how much you have benefitted from this arrangement with TK.

Do you know why this topic upsets you so much? Because it hits a nerve. You wouldn't be responding like this if it didn't. You have something to lose if the truth comes out. In your mind, you get a competitive advantage because you can completely control your product. You know Melanesians in Vanuatu lose from this, and that creates a huge market for you.

Your cover is blown.

Look, I'm a Kava review guy. I drink Kava and I blog about it. You're a vendor. It's a business for you. If you had nothing to lose here, you wouldn't be behaving this way.

I was looking for truth and reconciliation, and I got a face full of claws.

Peace,

Kavasseur
First I will respond to your response, you said, "This is completely immature and asinine."
I agree with you it is, when you look at how you can say one thing and then say another and then go back and forth that is exactly how you described my actions.
When you say something that is actually wrong and you are corrected, you say that you are right and the other person is wrong, for example.
You said Isa is a kava that the Hawaiians love, I said that was not true and sited some reference's as to why what I was saying was right, you disregarded this and said you have family and friends that say other wise.
It is true that there are people that like Isa, you are one of them, that is your choice, I have never had a problems with peoples choice of buying what ever kava they want but I did have a problem with kava being sold as Noble and it actually has some tudei inside or it might be all tudei.

The reason I said you were "trouble making" and "that you like to do it" is because that is how it seems, and this is not the first time you have brought this up and getting all kinds of responses from many different members, most of them are on the do not drink tudei side but would like to make sure that the kava they buy is what they expect to get, meaning Noble or Tudei.

Then you mention how you have done so much for almost 20 years now for the kava community and I do not deny that, you have done a lot for the kava community, I don't think that was ever in doubt from any of the member, but I am speaking for myself right now.
You also talked about how I seem to get an unfair edge somehow and that I am only a vendor.
I have to tell you that I have been involved with kava since I was a teenager, I have been told stories from my grandmother how she use to prepare her dads kava, that's family history.
I started drinking kava on a regular basis in 1985, I have been growing is since 1987, I have been helping in research with kava since 1993, I am the President of the Hawaii Awa Council and have been for over 15 years, before I was there president I was the vise president, before I was vise president I was a director at large. I have tought about Hawaiian kava at a Hawaiian immersion school in Keaau Hawaii. Another unique thing is that I know and correspond with just about every kava expert there is. I can go on and on but I will stop there While you do have experience with kava it is clear who has more.

You then imply how I am making so much money just because all the pacific countries have banned tudei kava, you make it seem like I have some unfair advantage with what I am doing.
All i am doing is growing great kava and educating people with the most update information.
I am not stopping anyone from starting there own farm here and growing Hawaiian kava or even tudei, that is up to them, I even encourage people to grow Hawaiian kava and start Hawaiian kava farms.
The fact that Hawaiian kava is so good and noble is because it is obvious that the early settlers brought only the best with them on the canoes as space was limited, we also know that Hawaii was the last stop of the migration of kava so we can expect Hawaii to have the best of what the early settlers to Hawaii had to choose from, they did not bring tudei to Hawaii, the did not bring it to Fiji nor to Tonga nor to Samoa nor to pohnpei.
It has always been my intention to offer kava lovers a choice, just because my kava is so good does not mean that I nor TK is out to get the competition.
A top vendor even came on and said that it was not as bad as you say it is when you say so many vendor are going out of business because of TK or even me.
It is always up to the customer as to weather or not they are going to buy my kava and buy it again and again or got some other kava or even a combo of both, there IS a lot of good kava out there, there is also a lot of bad kava out there, thus the purpose of TK.

I have nothing to loose, I am not hurt or upset, you hit no nerve, the truth coming out? Remember the truth is you are a kava reviewer with almost 20 years experience, you think because I never did reviews online means I have never got together with kava leaders and others in the kava community and talked about the effects of different kava, you should here what they have to say about Isa. Also I have been doing that for many more years than you.
Then you say I am just a kava seller, I am much more than that and that is clear and well known and I know what I am talking about because I stay on the top of the kava scene, an example might be when you asked where Johnathan Yee was. Well when my daughter and I were talking to him at the 2015 KAVACON he told us that he only has a small place and his kava does not grow that big, I know how much land it takes to supply a kava business, also he also does it in his spare time not full time, he has a place close by me but his kava all died there because of phoma and neglect since he lives on Oahu. I have to say that my daughter was surprised when he told us he can get 15 pounds from a mature kava of say 3 years old because she knows and has seen and helped harvest and process my kava that is over 150 pounds in 4 years. So I guess ya, now my cover is blown, now people know the truth.
I can go on and on and others can go on but I am going to stop here.
Ma,i,ai Keia,ia"oia noi O" ole,pa"a Pepa hale.
aloha nui loa.

Chris
 
Last edited:

violet

Do all things with love
While discussing a subject of contention in the community, this thread has remained civil without resorting to personal insults and inflammatory dialogue. It would be great if it could remain that way, thanks.
 

Kojo Douglas

The Kavasseur
Chris, you are a highly valued and respected member of the forum. You don't need to respond to Kavasseur.
Now look, how is this constructive? You're portraying me as some kind of bombastic schoolyard bully. Chris and I both had a back-and-forth earlier in this thread. I think Chris's recent post was an attempt to heal and explain or respond to some of the things I said. Perhaps I am off base with some of my claims and he is explaining the reality of the situation?

I didn't know Deleted User was going through what he has been going through. I'm very sorry to hear all of that. I just felt that, on the surface of things, it looked like very few vendors were benefitting from the TK system as it stands. It's not hard to understand at least how it might seem that way, is it?

On the health/science front, Henry has provided a good discussion on how Tudei is less healthy than Noble. Yes, that's true.

Well, if the point of this thread was to set the narratives straight, then I think it has been moderately successful.

The real winner here is the whole community.

I'm sorry that I had to be such an abrasive facilitator.
 

moff000

Kava Enthusiast
I think this type of thread is needed as i'm still really a newcomer to the world of Kava and still not up to speed on the differences of noble/tudei.
I'm not sure at this stage if i'd try tudei unless i was sure there were going to be no side effects?
Is tudei ok in moderation? Is it like drinking beer and then going onto hard liquor?
All of my recent Kava (last 2 years) is kava that is recommended on this forum and i've been very happy with the choices i have tried. Some of these choices i've made have been influenced by Kavasseurs vids.
 

Kojo Douglas

The Kavasseur
@moff000 Almost all of the Kava I review on my website is Noble. Maybe some years back (like way back) I did some Tudei reviews. And yes, the beer to hard liquor analogy is a good one. Thanks for shout out to my blog, it's a hobby that I enjoy very much!

Bula! And continued good luck on your Kava journey.
 

moff000

Kava Enthusiast
I think i can get to grips to why people are pushing towards noble Kava due to all the bad press of kava in general has generated.
I personally would like a rethink into the sales of kava in europe and from what i'm reading going forward with noble Kava is the way to do this?

-
 

Kojo Douglas

The Kavasseur
It's important to remember here that there are a lot of stakeholders from the subsistence farmer with a couple acres on a remote island in Vanuatu, to Kava buyers and exports in Port Villa, to Chinese Kava buyers, to vendors in the United States, to Nakamals and Kava Bars all over the world, to Kava drinkers and patients, and to scientists and public health folks. So these kinds of issues are never going to be simple. It is a complex economic, social, health, and cultural issue.
 

Edward

Aluballin' in the UK
Kava Vendor
I think i can get to grips to why people are pushing towards noble Kava due to all the bad press of kava in general has generated.
I personally would like a rethink into the sales of kava in europe and from what i'm reading going forward with noble Kava is the way to do this?

-
I can't see there being much of a market in Europe for tudei anyway. Even if @Kavasseur is right and tudei is not more harmful to your health in the long term it is at least more likely to make you ill when you drink it. The problem will be when a big company who may or may not know the difference between the two start using tudei to make their "convenient, one-a-day, not bad tasting, standardised" capsules and then if people do start getting ill from them kava as a whole will be blamed.

So to add to that, I just can't see any benefit of promoting tudei. Some people like it but the vast majority of people want something that is not going to make them ill.
 

moff000

Kava Enthusiast
Yeah i certainly wouldn't want anything that could make me ill!
I wouldn't have a clue how to go about finding tudei for sale. I'm happy with most of the choices i've purchased on this journey!
@ Edward did you say that one from GKE could have some tudei in it?
 

Kojo Douglas

The Kavasseur
It's important to note here that there are different varieties of Kava with different genetics and chemotypes, so it's not a situation where Kava is necessarily Noble or Tudei. There are Noble Kavas that will make you feel ill, even some sold by @Gourmet Hawaiian Kava . I got horribly sick off of Hanakapi'Ai after three shells once. So it's more of a spectrum than it is an either/or. That's one reason why I've always found the labeling to be a bit preposterous.
 

Edward

Aluballin' in the UK
Kava Vendor
Yeah i certainly wouldn't want anything that could make me ill!
I wouldn't have a clue how to go about finding tudei for sale. I'm happy with most of the choices i've purchased on this journey!
@ Edward did you say that one from GKE could have some tudei in it?
On the old acetone test results sheet there was some question over Tanna Marang and Tanna Kaolik. I felt distinctly queasy on the Marang but it was early on in my kava career so not sure. I didn't drink it again though.
 

Edward

Aluballin' in the UK
Kava Vendor
It's important to note here that there are different varieties of Kava with different genetics and chemotypes, so it's not a situation where Kava is necessarily Noble or Tudei. There are Noble Kavas that will make you feel ill, even some sold by @Gourmet Hawaiian Kava . I got horribly sick off of Hanakapi'Ai after three shells once. So it's more of a spectrum than it is an either/or. That's one reason why I've always found the labeling to be a bit preposterous.
Some leave you fresher in the morning than others though don't they.
 

nickbroken

Kava Enthusiast
Lol I love the kava community. It's the only online community that can have a conversation about a touchy subject and not completely flame each other, that doesn't get mad at all the foolish kava questions that are repeated over and over I.e. which kava is best for anxiety? Everyone here seems to be helpful and passionate when talking about kava and helping instruct others on its use and effects, bless you guys I'm.offto drink some boroguru in your honor and lay on my couch like a slug all day.
 

verticity

I'm interested in things
I think this type of thread is needed as i'm still really a newcomer to the world of Kava and still not up to speed on the differences of noble/tudei.
I'm not sure at this stage if i'd try tudei unless i was sure there were going to be no side effects?
Is tudei ok in moderation? Is it like drinking beer and then going onto hard liquor?
All of my recent Kava (last 2 years) is kava that is recommended on this forum and i've been very happy with the choices i have tried. Some of these choices i've made have been influenced by Kavasseurs vids.
In my opinion, really the only good use for tudei is medicinally, for things like physical pain. There are very likely to be unpleasant side effects, even in moderation: nausea, hangover, etc. There is less kavain euphoria, and more just drunken feeling, so it feels qualitatively different from noble (and, worse imo). With the wide variety of noble kavas available you are really not missing anything by not trying tudei.
 

verticity

I'm interested in things
Lol I love the kava community. It's the only online community that can have a conversation about a touchy subject and not completely flame each other, that doesn't get mad at all the foolish kava questions that are repeated over and over I.e. which kava is best for anxiety? Everyone here seems to be helpful and passionate when talking about kava and helping instruct others on its use and effects, bless you guys I'm.offto drink some boroguru in your honor and lay on my couch like a slug all day.
Yes! It totally annoys me on other sites when a newcomer asks a question, and someone just replies "Read the FAQ you idiot!" or even worse posts a link to "letmegooglethatforyou.com" I know I have answered the same questions asked different times by different people over the years, but it really doesn't bother me. In fact answering questions is a great way to connect with people and make newcomers feel welcome, which is really what it's all about.
 

Edward

Aluballin' in the UK
Kava Vendor
Yes! It totally annoys me on other sites when a newcomer asks a question, and someone just replies "Read the FAQ you idiot!" or even worse posts a link to "letmegooglethatforyou.com" I know I have answered the same questions asked different times by different people over the years, but it really doesn't bother me. In fact answering questions is a great way to connect with people and make newcomers feel welcome, which is really what it's all about.
Do you feel welcome? Just asking so you can answer :)
 

Kojo Douglas

The Kavasseur
Maybe the point of the whole thing is that TK certification just confuses people. Imagine being a newbie and having to figure out the difference between a TK-certified Kava and a non TK-certified Kava.

As for the Tudei issue, well.. I think we all just have different opinions on it. But I do, for one, want to respect the policies of Kava-exporting countries. If it is illegal for Vanuatuans to export Tudei, I certainly don't want to create a demand for it. But Isa from Hawaii, properly labeled? Why not?
 
Top