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Any help appreciated - love/hate kava relationship.

Zamboni Boy

Kava Curious
Hello all - Ive been lurking for awhile on this forum and have gotten lots of help in terms of reviews, vendors etc.. I went through some threads that deal tangentially with this issue, but have not found anything that really helped.

The bottom line is this - I feel great drinking kava, and the day after i feel horrible. I never had nausea or skin issues, but i feel straight up depressed and out of it, which amps my anxiety up even more (ironically what i started using kava for in the first place). The effects started being more pronounced in the past few months. Ive tried to follow some suggestions (drinking lots of water, cutting down on my amount etc.) but nothing seems to help. Does anyone have experience with beating these side effects? Maybe some supplement or something? I would love any help with this, since kava would be incredible for me if the day after wasn't a complete write-off. This is my regular session for the last month, just as an example:

1 heaped teaspoon on micronized GHK pepe kea per half a cup of water (around 200 mililitres)
and i usually have 3 or 4 of these half-cups. My normal sessions are 3-4 teaspoons of micronized, in other words.

Thanks in advance for your help.
 

KavaCat

Meow.
Hmm. I have anxiety (much milder now than it used to be), and used to suffer from depression (the fact that I don't anymore is a long story, but has nothing to do with kava), so I feel you on the next day anxiety and depression. I've had depression symptoms get worse WHILE having kava, too. This has nothing to do with the physical aspects of kava, I think. I believe it's more that you are simply in a low state naturally, and whatnot.

One thing I noticed, though, is that the more body heavy kava strains were what most often left me more depressed. Boroguru tripped it off almost EVERY time, although this was fine in my case, my roommate really loves the body heavy stuff and hates the heady ones. So you might switch to a headier strain. If you like to stick with GHK, try the Mahakea. I have not had any depression symptoms arise because of Mahakea, ever. If you want to use the rest of your Papa kea, perhaps get some Mo'i and use half Mo'i, half Papa Kea, or blend the papa kea with Mahakea. So one of my strongest suggestions here is go through a few different strains, find the a couple that doesn't affect you so strongly this way. If money is a concern, and you need to sell off some of your kava after testing, partial bags, I'm sure the forum can help you with that. Possibly, too, you might ask Chris about samples or something, he's pretty cool and is great at customer service.

Second, let's talk about stimulants. Are you using any on a regular basis? For instance, if you usually have coffee, tea, or caffeine, and you spend a day without it, because you are having kava instead, you might be having stimulant withdrawal. People with anxiety and depression often overlook this as a source of their mood swings. And if you're not using any, have you TRIED using any? Haha! I know that sounds like completely opposite advice, but I know an energy drink will get me out of a bad mood in a heartbeat. If your anxiety is too bad for that, it's probably the huge load of liquid B-vitamins that are so helpful, anyway, so you can look for energy drinks or shots that don't have caffeine. You might also supplement the next day with adaptogens, too. Maca and ashwaghanda, if you haven't tried those, definitely read up on them and give them a go, if you feel like they sound right for your situation. My mom is bipolar and loves ashwaghanda for when they won't let her have more benzos for a while. :p
 

Groggy

Kava aficionado
Admin
Hello all - Ive been lurking for awhile on this forum and have gotten lots of help in terms of reviews, vendors etc.. I went through some threads that deal tangentially with this issue, but have not found anything that really helped.

The bottom line is this - I feel great drinking kava, and the day after i feel horrible. I never had nausea or skin issues, but i feel straight up depressed and out of it, which amps my anxiety up even more (ironically what i started using kava for in the first place). The effects started being more pronounced in the past few months. Ive tried to follow some suggestions (drinking lots of water, cutting down on my amount etc.) but nothing seems to help. Does anyone have experience with beating these side effects? Maybe some supplement or something? I would love any help with this, since kava would be incredible for me if the day after wasn't a complete write-off. This is my regular session for the last month, just as an example:

1 heaped teaspoon on micronized GHK pepe kea per half a cup of water (around 200 mililitres)
and i usually have 3 or 4 of these half-cups. My normal sessions are 3-4 teaspoons of micronized, in other words.

Thanks in advance for your help.
Try changing up the kava or strain, if you like ghk, try Moi or Nene.
 

Blue Roads

Kava Enthusiast
Try changing up the kava or strain, if you like ghk, try Moi or Nene.
I've had good experiences with both of those, and GHK's Kumakua. Mo'i and Kumakua have been good daytime kava for me, and Nene puts me right to sleep. An interesting coincidence is that "nene" is a term used in Japanese when speaking to young children, and means sleeping. Mahakea was suggested by @KavaCat and I've had good experience with that too.

@Zamboni Boy I don't think I've had negative effects the next day as you described, but I have felt them with certain kavas later in the day. If I did a few shells of a body kava in the daytime, then later in the afternoon it seemed like I'd feel depressed about smaller things more easily. I've also found that if I use kava regularly it seems to make me more prone to feeling tired, so sometimes I'll take a break from it during the week if I have to work. I also take powdered magnesium supplements, theanine, fish oil, and phosphatidyl serine. As @KavaCat mentioned ashwaganda, I've used that too with good results.


Let us know how things are going. Anxiety and depression are a bitch. I think you'll do well once you find strains of kava that you like.
 

VictoryRider

Kava Enthusiast
I dealt with this same stuff back in the 2001 time frame. Sometimes kava made me feel GREAT the next day, sometimes I felt like absolute crap. I ended up just stopping until the depression/anxiety cleared up somewhat.

I have found, over and over, that the best treatment for depression and anxiety is exercise. The more the better. This is borne out by lots of medical literature. It has helped me more than anything else has. If you're not exercising, I highly recommend starting a regimen. Aerobic is best -- jogging, etc. And outside during the
day to get a good dose of sunshine is a bonus as well.
 
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Zamboni Boy

Kava Curious
Thank you for all the great responses. I have definitely felt a difference switching to a less heavy kava - i think thats the trick in my case. Shame cause i love the body-melting of heavies, but I just cant handle them i guess.
 

ThePiper

Kava Lover
My suggestion would be to find a very gentle mild kava like nene. Heavy kavas can leave you a little spacey or blah if you don't have the right routine going. I have definitely been there but i have mostly overcome it after getting more used to kava and now the worst of it is I might get an hour or so of feeling down if i drink certain kava when my body doesn't want it. It's a balance. I thinl you should try nene from ghk if you haven't already. Papa kea is considered a heavy kava. Nene is the most gentle kava. You might also try a lawena. That's the stump without the lateral roots. It is gentle and has never made me feel bummy or spaced out.
 
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Ben Thomas

Kava Enthusiast
I can’t find a kava that doesn’t give me rapid heart beat and anxiety the following day. It’s very strange, even on small amounts. Also every time I consume it after a break my skin is extremely red and itchy around my face and neck the following morning. Have no idea why I respond so poorly but the heavy strains really help with pain and relaxation however the drawbacks are difficult
 

ph0ng

Newbie
As far as I understand, Kava exerts it's effects through your GABA receptors. Similar to alcohol. Therefore, it would stand to reason you could get a hangover and depress your GABA receptors if you drink too much Kava.

Point is, Kava is therapeutic. It's not a recreational drug. If you try to abuse it, it will likely result in the same effects of a hangover from binging alcohol.
 

The Kap'n

The Groggy Kaptain (40g)
KavaForums Founder
As far as I understand, Kava exerts it's effects through your GABA receptors. Similar to alcohol. Therefore, it would stand to reason you could get a hangover and depress your GABA receptors if you drink too much Kava.

Point is, Kava is therapeutic. It's not a recreational drug. If you try to abuse it, it will likely result in the same effects of a hangover from binging alcohol.
It may not act how you think it acts on GABA.
http://kavaforums.com/forum/threads/how-it-works-kava.1580/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1332016

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4630875/
One such option is kava (Piper methysticum), a plant native to the South Pacific, whose roots have been used in traditional medicine in the form of cold-water extractions (non-alcoholic) to treat a range of health conditions, including anxiety, stress, muscular spasms, pain, and menstrual disorders [19, 20]. The therapeutic effect of kava is based on the six major lipophilic kavalactones, of which kawain and dihydrokawain (see Fig. 1) have the strongest anxiolytic activity [21]. Limbic structures of the brain have previously been suggested as the principal site of kavalactone action [22]. Kavalactones exert their anxiolytic effect through an array of neurobiological activity, primarily from modulation of gamma-aminobutyric acid (GABA) receptors via blockade of voltage-gated sodium ion channels [23, 24], reduced excitatory neurotransmitter release via blockade of calcium ion channels [25, 26], and enhanced ligand binding to GABA type A receptors [27]. Other neurochemical effects include reversible inhibition of monoamine oxidase B [28], inhibition of cyclo-oxygenase [29], and reduced neuronal reuptake of dopamine [30] and prefrontal cortex noradrenalin [31]. This noradrenergic effect differentiates the central bio-behavioural effects of kava from those of alcohol and benzodiazepines [32], while the combination of GABA modulation and increased noradrenergic activation contributes to feelings of physical relaxation with increased hedonic tone, with no deleterious effects on cognition [33].
Also, it would stand to reason that if it were similar to alcohol in its action we would have long time members complaining of the mind bending withdrawals, however with kava, we just don't see it.
 

BulamamatoNCIRVCKKPC

Learn to love me, assemble the ways...
As far as I understand, Kava exerts it's effects through your GABA receptors. Similar to alcohol. Therefore, it would stand to reason you could get a hangover and depress your GABA receptors if you drink too much Kava.

Point is, Kava is therapeutic. It's not a recreational drug. If you try to abuse it, it will likely result in the same effects of a hangover from binging alcohol.
Kava does bind to GABA receptors but not in the same way as a benzo. There are specific GABA (alpha) receptors that benzos bind to and kava does not affect these. This is a great pharmacologic phenomena to understand for those who are currently on or weaning from benzos. Kava is safe with benzos and can be used during a weaning process to help alleviate withdrawal symptoms. Darn, that doctorate in pharmacy always has to come out in me, in any situation. I need to be locked in a lab or something. ;) Not to mention it is personal, since I am enjoying kava for this very reason and it is wonderful. No need to abuse, just relief is perfect for me.
 

BulamamatoNCIRVCKKPC

Learn to love me, assemble the ways...
It may not act how you think it acts on GABA.
http://kavaforums.com/forum/threads/how-it-works-kava.1580/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1332016

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4630875/


Also, it would stand to reason that if it were similar to alcohol in its action we would have long time members complaining of the mind bending withdrawals, however with kava, we just don't see it.
ZERO withdrawal symptoms seen in those who use kava from long periods of time (and stop use) have been studied in double blind placebo studies out of Australia. I'll try to find the proof on my day off tomorrow. It is quite interesting and exciting, at the same time (especially to pharmacology geeks, such as myself).
 

Intrepidus_dux

Kava O.G.
Kava does bind to GABA receptors but not in the same way as a benzo. There are specific GABA (alpha) receptors that benzos bind to and kava does not affect these. This is a great pharmacologic phenomena to understand for those who are currently on or weaning from benzos. Kava is safe with benzos and can be used during a weaning process to help alleviate withdrawal symptoms. Darn, that doctorate in pharmacy always has to come out in me, in any situation. I need to be locked in a lab or something. ;) Not to mention it is personal, since I am enjoying kava for this very reason and it is wonderful. No need to abuse, just relief is perfect for me.
Huzzah! You've outed yourself and know we know where to direct these types of questions. I remember reading that it's so much more than GABA receptors, right? It's calcium ion channels and other things I can't remember now. I don't understand why GABA is addressed alone when there seems to be so much more going on with kava.
 

BulamamatoNCIRVCKKPC

Learn to love me, assemble the ways...
Huzzah! You've outed yourself and know we know where to direct these types of questions. I remember reading that it's so much more than GABA receptors, right? It's calcium ion channels and other things I can't remember now. I don't understand why GABA is addressed alone when there seems to be so much more going on with kava.
:sneaky:
Numerous proteins including γ-aminobutyric acid type A receptors (GABAARs), voltage-gated Na+ and Ca2+ channels, opioid μ and δ receptors, dopamine type-2 receptor, histamine type-1 and 2 receptors, cannabinoid type-1 receptor, and monoamine oxidase type B have been suggested to be the molecular targets for kavalactones [16, 1820]. Due to the paucity of robust evidence, however, a consensus on the pharmacology of kavalactones has not yet been reached, but there is a prevailing view on the basis of their benzodiazepine-like pharmacological actions that GABAARs are the main target for kavalactones.
But *not* the benzo sites:
Notably, none of these studies detected significant affinity of kavalactones for the benzodiazepine binding site, contrary to popular belief.
From:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4917254/

Many more, which I'll share tomorrow. It seems that world of pharmacology has taken a great interest in how kava really works. I think it looks promising in keeping kava legal. I *must* find the interview regarding the studies done disproving any type of withdrawal from kava in Australia as well. Interesting stuff!
 

Intrepidus_dux

Kava O.G.
:sneaky:
Numerous proteins including γ-aminobutyric acid type A receptors (GABAARs), voltage-gated Na+ and Ca2+ channels, opioid μ and δ receptors, dopamine type-2 receptor, histamine type-1 and 2 receptors, cannabinoid type-1 receptor, and monoamine oxidase type B have been suggested to be the molecular targets for kavalactones [16, 1820]. Due to the paucity of robust evidence, however, a consensus on the pharmacology of kavalactones has not yet been reached, but there is a prevailing view on the basis of their benzodiazepine-like pharmacological actions that GABAARs are the main target for kavalactones.
But *not* the benzo sites:
Notably, none of these studies detected significant affinity of kavalactones for the benzodiazepine binding site, contrary to popular belief.
From:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4917254/

Many more, which I'll share tomorrow. It seems that world of pharmacology has taken a great interest in how kava really works. I think it looks promising in keeping kava legal. I *must* find the interview regarding the studies done disproving any type of withdrawal from kava in Australia as well. Interesting stuff!
Fabulous! All of these sites sound just fine to me of course. Learning is one of life’s greatest joys and I’m eager to hear back tomorrow.
 

BulamamatoNCIRVCKKPC

Learn to love me, assemble the ways...
Okay, I have no idea what everyone has already shared here but the more I research, the more I see how extremely harmless kava is in our bodies, brains, etc. This is very exciting because the research turns up nothing that can make kava out to be abusive. I'll share a few excerpts again from another article and then the link to the article. Also, I'll find the interview on the Australian studies proving zero withdrawal, which is WAY more than we can say for benzos! Kava does not affect those receptors, so this makes sense.
"Kava and kava-containing products are not recommended for use in children younger than 12 years of age, or in patients with renal disease, thrombocytopenia, or neutropenia. 1 Additionally, patients with depression, liver disease, and Parkinson disease should avoid using kava."
12 years old? This is promising to me at to the harmelessness of kava.
"Many cultivars of kava are recognized. The comparative chemistry and ethnopharmacology have been studied in detail, and 121 named cultivars from 51 islands have been grouped into 6 chemotypes."
I know that many have already been actually working with the 6 chemotypes but 121 named cultvars caught my eye!
"The efficacy of kava is not diminished with continued use."
I'd like to read the studies referenced but this is true. No tolerance to kava, unlike benzos, where doses are increased every few months, etc.
"Other constituents of kava include 2 chalcones, flavokawains A and B, 39 that were postulated to cause dermopathy in heavy kava users."
Again, I need to read the full studies but we know what causes dermopathy. However, this really changes nothing other than being interesting because, with the full root, ground up, we are not able to pull these two chalcones out to prevent dermopathy 100% and I think we are all okay with that on these forums. They can and are pulled out at labs to make capsules, though.
"Kavalactones have a half-life of 9 hours and achieve peak plasma levels 1.8 hours after administration. 14 Kinetics of entry of kavalactones into mouse brains after intraperitoneal injection have been studied, and kawain and dihydrokawain were rapidly absorbed and quickly eliminated within several minutes, while yangonin and desmoethoxyyangonin were more slowly incorporated and eliminated."
True, this is not only different in humans but may vary from person to person. So, this is just vague data. Also, which type of kava was studied? I have to look into the studies. I'm sure that someone here has done this already but I will be researching it myself as well. Tmax= 1.8 hours, with a half-life of 9 hours! So, the kavalactones definitely build up, which is a good thing, in my opinion, especially for the purpose that I am looking at kava, to releive anxiety.
"
Concerns about impaired performance under the influence of kava have motivated several studies in humans. One small study found insignificant decreases in cognitive function when using kava, with only the extent of body sway showing an increase. Subjects' rating of intoxication under kava was low to moderate, while respiration, heart rate, and blood pressure were unaffected. Kava lowered arousal rating without affecting stress rating, although the decrease was not statistically significant. 60Another small study of 12 patients compared the effects of kava and oxazepam on behavior and event-related potentials in a word recognition task. While oxazepam produced pronounced negative effects on performance, no effects were seen with kava. 61 A study of reaction time by the same authors concluded that kava may increase attention slightly, in contrast to oxazepam, which impaired attention. 62 Kawain in EEG studies showed mild sedation at high doses (600 mg) but not at lower doses (200 mg). 63 Kava had no effect on alertness and long-term memory in a subsequent trial. 64Minor changes in vision and balance were detected with kava in one subject."
That's a long excerpt, I know, but it is fascinating to me. Kava compaired to a benzo and disproving that kava causes impairment to any siginifcant degree. Whereas, the benzo *does* cause a lot of issues.
From:
https://www.drugs.com/npp/kava.html
There is a LOT more but it is too long and probably boring to continue. These studies continue and are finding numerous benefits to kava use. Is this good or bad for us, as a kava loving community? Is this where big pharma takes it away from us or is this where they leave us alone? I hope that was okay to post! The more I read, the more I love my kava and the less benzos I am even needing to take! Sorry for the "book" ;) and BULA! :)
 

Intrepidus_dux

Kava O.G.
Maybe we could do a virtual kava circle/discussion group with you as the lead while others ask questions! What do you think of this?
 

BulamamatoNCIRVCKKPC

Learn to love me, assemble the ways...
Maybe we could do a virtual kava circle/discussion group with you as the lead while others ask questions! What do you think of this?
I would be honored to do my best. I am able to read studies and whether they are significant or not in it's findings. However, it depends on what information is out there, which may not be much more than most on the forums already know. That being said, if the consensus is to do so, I would love to do the research in a Q&A format, if others find it useful! :)
 

BulamamatoNCIRVCKKPC

Learn to love me, assemble the ways...
@BulamamatoNCIRVCKKPC , this is just fabulous and I inhaled every bit of information here. If you wish to write more, maybe create a new thread or send it to me directly! I for one am immensely enjoying learning these things. I’m confident there are other people who do too.
Very interesting, isn't it? I have only uncovered good things! The worst is dermopathy, which we all know can happen. In fact, literature and data don't even concentrate on this as it is such a mild side effect compared to what their goal is in finding true health issues. Any of those allegations have been proven inaccurate!
 
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