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Carbs in Kava

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WimblySlop

Kava Curious
It took me over a week to stabilize new diet changes. So I think its a good idea to do your test long enough to take that into consideration before switching or stopping kava.

Three tests would be great
* Instant
* Micro
* None

If you can afford it, once an hour or two after kava and once in the morning when you wake. I normally just do mine first thing in the morning before consuming anything.

I missed the post that you got a meter. That's great, which one did you get??

I'm actually excited you're doing this. Thanks!!!
I had a Precision Xtra that I had used previously for ketone blood tests, I just stopped buying the strips as they run about $3-5 per strip. If I do a blood test four times a day, it's going to run about $15-20/day for the tests, so I stopped buying them. I got a little intrigued about the question of ketosis and kava, so I bought another 10 to do a little mini-test.

I tested the first time Wednesday evening after using kava (nene instant) during the day. My ketones levels were at .4 mmol/L, oddly low. I was also peeing blanks on the urinalysis strips. I haven't tested my blood since, though I did a urinalysis a bit ago and I'm back to showing slightly above trace. I haven't had Kava since Wednesday. I don't plan on having an kava until next week, and I will test on Monday for a baseline pre-kava use once I'm firmly back in ketosis, and then I'll have a kava session with instant to begin with and take two tests, 2 hours after session and then that evening before I go to bed. Then, once again the following morning. If i'm firmly back in ketosis, I will repeat the procedure with micronized. I'll keep y'all posted!

.wimbly
 

HeadHodge

Bula To Eternity
@WimblySlop you can get the test strips lots cheaper on eBay. Never had any problems from them.

.4 is where I started on my diet. Ive been able to get to 2 to 2.5 since then, even with instant kava.
 

WimblySlop

Kava Curious
@WimblySlop you can get the test strips lots cheaper on eBay. Never had any problems from them.

.4 is where I started on my diet. Ive been able to get to 2 to 2.5 since then, even with instant kava.
Interesting, that's good to know. Yeah, technically clinical ketosis is anything above .2, though I think Volek, Phinney, et Al. suggest that above .5 is a better guideline, and above 1.5 is "optimal," but I find ketone levels (from my last time with the strips) to be quite variable. Mine would go from .2 to 2 during the course of a given day, and I considered myself fully adapted at that point. Even stress/anxiety can shift ketone production, so it's a tricky phenomenon to track, but I think we'll get a general enough idea from the coming blood tests.

It's good to know you were able to stay well into Ketosis with instant use. How much were you using when you were able to maintain a ketogenic metabolism? I typically take 3 TBSP of instant and then another 1-3 over the next hour or two if I'm having a good session, so perhaps it's just the quantity I utilize.

.wimbly
 

WimblySlop

Kava Curious
@WimblySlop you can get the test strips lots cheaper on eBay. Never had any problems from them.

.4 is where I started on my diet. Ive been able to get to 2 to 2.5 since then, even with instant kava.
Say, also, HeadHodge, I've always wondered: why is the number incorrect on your mad hatter image?
 

Go Krunk Yourself

Kava Enthusiast
Interesting, that's good to know. Yeah, technically clinical ketosis is anything above .2, though I think Volek, Phinney, et Al. suggest that above .5 is a better guideline, and above 1.5 is "optimal," but I find ketone levels (from my last time with the strips) to be quite variable. Mine would go from .2 to 2 during the course of a given day, and I considered myself fully adapted at that point. Even stress/anxiety can shift ketone production, so it's a tricky phenomenon to track, but I think we'll get a general enough idea from the coming blood tests.

It's good to know you were able to stay well into Ketosis with instant use. How much were you using when you were able to maintain a ketogenic metabolism? I typically take 3 TBSP of instant and then another 1-3 over the next hour or two if I'm having a good session, so perhaps it's just the quantity I utilize.

.wimbly
Yeah those strips have never been consistent for me. Thats why I just go with if I'm still losing weight or not. If I stall I look at things that can influence it (Kava, Artificial Sweeteners, Too much inactivity etc)

I've lost so much weight over the years I just play it by ear.
 

HeadHodge

Bula To Eternity
Yeah those strips have never been consistent for me. Thats why I just go with if I'm still losing weight or not. If I stall I look at things that can influence it (Kava, Artificial Sweeteners, Too much inactivity etc)
I've lost so much weight over the years I just play it by ear.
So you think kava over carbs you? How much weight have you lost over what period of time? Artificial sweetners?
 

Go Krunk Yourself

Kava Enthusiast
So you think kava over carbs you? How much weight have you lost over what period of time? Artificial sweetners?
I think it may be slowing down my weight loss a bit and I started having cravings. Keep in mind this was from micronized. In this thread I'm just trying to validate that I am consistent in weight loss when taking Kava and also in it's various forms.

Been on and off low carb diets since I was 14 when I was 330 pounds. Lost 100. Gained back like 70. Got down to like 250 and lingered for a while. Than 230. Now I'm at 208. Want to enjoy Kava but also keep losing weight on this pretty strict diet. I never properly incorporated a exercise routine so perhaps if I start that it would outweigh any of the starch and sugar that Kava will hit me with.. hard to say.. keeping an eye on the scale for now. Getting under 200 is pretty important psychologically.
 

HeadHodge

Bula To Eternity
I think it may be slowing down my weight loss a bit and I started having cravings. Keep in mind this was from micronized. In this thread I'm just trying to validate that I am consistent in weight loss when taking Kava and also in it's various forms.

Been on and off low carb diets since I was 14 when I was 330 pounds. Lost 100. Gained back like 70. Got down to like 250 and lingered for a while. Than 230. Now I'm at 208. Want to enjoy Kava but also keep losing weight on this pretty strict diet. I never properly incorporated a exercise routine so perhaps if I start that it would outweigh any of the starch and sugar that Kava will hit me with.. hard to say.. keeping an eye on the scale for now. Getting under 200 is pretty important psychologically.
Awesome, what is your strict diet? Do you walk?
 

Go Krunk Yourself

Kava Enthusiast
Awesome, what is your strict diet? Do you walk?
I am extremely sedentary due to my line of work and have been for a long time. I stick to mostly Atkins induction phase, Ketogenic Diet, Low carb, whatever you want to call it I'm strict with it for both weight loss, health reasons, and mental clarity.
 

Go Krunk Yourself

Kava Enthusiast
Down to 207.2 Clear skies for now, but also Kava usage is going down as it's hitting me harder at small amounts. Still missing Micronized so may switch back to that and see if it stalls me again.
 

WimblySlop

Kava Curious
So, here's the test so far:

8AM: .4mmol/L -- fairly typical for me, my ketones are at their lowest after a night's rest, I'm not sure why, but this is normal in my experience.
9AM: One Tablespoon of Coconut Oil, One cup of Coffee
1:45PM: .6mmol/L -- Slightly higher, typical as they day wears on.
2PM: Lunch of three Bratwursts. Fat/Protein ratio is good. Carb level for the day is at 3.
4PM: 1.2mmol/L -- Elevated presumably from my fatty late lunch as well as I was moving around cleaning up the house for about an hour.
6PM: .8mmol/L -- Food digested, levels back down. This is a fairly light energy-expenditure day for me. No biking, no running, no hiking (weather is shit).
6:15PM: Two TBSP of Micronized Mahakea. I will wait about 30min before possibly having one more TBSP depending on effect.
6:45PM: One TBSP of Micronized Mahakea.
7:15: .7mmol/L
8:15: 1.1mmol/L This is fairly usual for me as well... in fact I was a bit surprised at how low the last one was.
8:25: Interesting. On a lark, I did a urinalysis strip test. Showing ZERO ketones. This is my fourth strip of the day, but my first after the kava. All previous strips have been moderate or higher (dark pink to purple).
8:30: Dinner of pancetta, three egg yolks, parmesan and romano, black pepper, and one serving of turnip noodles. Net Carbs for the day: 12.
9:45: .7mmol/L Tired, so I took this one a little bit early. Not an unexpected drop as most meals have an insulin response. I am, however, still firmly in nutritional ketosis.

My ketones usually rise through the day. I'm going to sleep now, so maybe more thoughts tomorrow, however clearly only a minor decline in blood ketones after the kava, although perhaps it would have been higher without as I seemed a bit low today. Based on general experimenting over the weekend and in the past, I would usually be up above 1.5mmol/L at this point, but that's quite variable as anyone who has done ketone monitoring knows. Whether the raise in serum levels was from kava or not is difficult to ascertain, although I will note here that when I took my kava, I rarely if ever feel nauseated unless I take a LOT, and in this case it made me feel somewhat light-headed and a bit ill coinciding with the rise in serum ketone levels. This passed after eating and may be easily explained by the diuretic effect of kava which might explain the discrepancy between the tests in the evening post-kava.

Regarding the urinalysis, this seems to indicate that beta-hydroxybutyrate serum levels remained relatively close to normal (noting the dip as recorded), however acetoacetate (what urine strips actually test) seemed to have dropped precipitously. As you all probably know, beta-hydroxybutyrate is actually the critical component of a ketogenic metabolism. One usually assumes a relationship (though often hazy and rarely accurate) between acetoacetate measured in urine and assumed beta-hydroxybutyrate in the blood, however in this case that was not accurate, as the urinalysis showed zero ketone spillage despite the blood tests being above 1mmol/L.

Thoughts? I'm off to sleep.

Until later,

.wimbly
 
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Crunked

Proselytizer
8:15: 1.1mmol/L This is fairly usual for me as well... in fact I was a bit surprised at how low the last one was.
8:25: Interesting. On a lark, I did a urinalysis strip test. Showing ZERO ketones. This is my fourth strip of the day, but my first after the kava. All previous strips have been moderate or higher (dark pink to purple).
Doesn't this suggest that the strips are a waste of money? At 1.1mmol/L you are unquestionably in nutritional ketosis. Thank you very much for your detailed experimentation. ::tipshat::
 

WimblySlop

Kava Curious
Doesn't this suggest that the strips are a waste of money? At 1.1mmol/L you are unquestionably in nutritional ketosis. Thank you very much for your detailed experimentation. ::tipshat::
I would consider it somewhat unusual for there to be such a discrepancy between the two, but, yes, it is fairly well known that the urinalysis strips have limited value. They test for acetoacetate in the urine. Beta hydroxybutyrate (which the brain can mobilize for energy) is synthesized by the liver from acetoacetate, so the typical thinking goes, if acetoacetate is present in the urine, some amount of that is (or at least theoretically could be) being synthesized by the liver to create β-hydroxybutyric acid. That being said, these numbers don't always correlate: the urine tests are testing urine which sits in the bladder for varying amounts of time, diuretics change the concentrations of urine, levels of acetoacetate don't mean your body is necessarily synthesizing that ketone into usable energy, etc., etc.

Waste of money? A urinalysis strip is a couple of pennies per (half that if you cut them in half which you can easily do) whereas blood strips are about $4 per, so for a broad, inaccurate indicator, it's not necessarily awful. If you are willing to spend the money, obviously the blood ketone strips offer a more valuable insight, but the dirty secret there is that at the end of the day, you're only analyzing available serum beta hydroxybutyrate, not utilized beta hydroxybutyrate. How much is being marshaled in the service of powering your brain, etc., is unknown, though the correlation between available blood ketones and ketogenic metabolism is significantly stronger and more reliable than the urinalysis.

.wimbly
 

Go Krunk Yourself

Kava Enthusiast
I have continued to lose weight but I do notice on days when I do not do Kava I seem to lose more. I think Kava, in itself, even if not from the ketone drop / blood sugar rise just having something in your stomach is going to affect weight loss to some degree just because I don't snack virtually at all so in the times I do KAva I woudl be entirely devoid of anything in my stomach, whether it's an afternoon sesh or not. For example, last night I eat at 6PM but I was up until 5AM and didn't eat until I woke up past 2 which is a pretty decent fast. And it so happens that when I do things such as this weight loss is increased.

Overall, I'm not noticing any substantial effect on my weight loss since using medium grind. However, I enjoy the effects of micronized more. I actually find micronized to be more heady even on heavy kava's and I seem to enjoy it more (though I have built up enough kavaltoens to the level of daily drinkers that I'd have to see now as I was a weekend warrior with micronized in the past)

I'm gonna give some of the micronized Kava I have left a go again.
 
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