Confused About Using Lecithin and Oils

[HeadHodge]

Hi,

I've been using Paradise extracts and Bula House instant green Kava for a little over a year now. I finally decided to try using some root powder, so I bought a bag of N@H Stone.

The recipe I'm currently using to prepare the powder is:

-Add 2 cups of room temperature water + 4 heaping tablespoons of Stone + 1 teaspoon of Canola oil into a blender.
-Blend at low speed for 3 minutes and let steep (soak) for 30 minutes or more
-Blend at high speed for 3 minutes and let steep (soak) for 30 minutes or more
-Blend at high speed for 3 minutes then pour contents into a cloth strainer over an empty bowl.
-Let gravity drain water out of strainer into bowl for awhile
-Squeeze rest of water out of strainer until no more water can be squeezed
-Throw root solids left in strainer into garbage
-Store bowl in fridge overnight

Next day put Kava in bowl back into blender
Add stuff to make it taste good (i.e. banana, sugar, etc.) and blend at low speed until everything is well mixed
Pour mix into glass and drink

This seems to work pretty well. My lips and mouth get almost immediately numb drinking it with other effects lasting for about an hour or so.
When the effect starts to decline, I pour another glass. I do this until I consume all the mix I made in that batch.

It's a long round about way to get to my actual question.....
I've spent "lot's" of time reading about recipes others are using many of them say I should use a little lecithin (in the step where I use the Canola oil).
Others say I should use both some lecithin "and" some sort of oil (like vegetable oil, canola oil, olive oil, coconut oil, etc.)
Others say I should use the oil only as a substitute for lecithin, when the lecithin is not available.

My understanding is that lecithin is a fatty by-product of the refining process of oils like soy oil, canola oil, sunflower oil, etc. And that you want to use the lecithin to aid in the extraction of the kavalactones from the root powder because the lactones are more fat soluable than water soluable and using lecithin helps to get lactones seperated from the root powder.

So if my understanding is correct then it doesn't make sense why you would want to use an oil along with the lecithin, because it seems it would be redundant to do so.

Is there something I'm missing in my understanding of the use of lecithin without the need to use oil or is there something the oil is doing that the lecithin is not to aid in the extraction process??

Also since, it's my understanding, the natural lecithin is removed during the oil refining process, does the oil really work as a substitute for lecithin or do only substances with fat in it work as a substitute (i.e. coconut milk, cow milk, soy milk, etc.)

Anyways I'm confused about what to do and would appreciate any insight someone could give to clarify my understanding and the use of lecithin and oil in my kavalactone extraction process.

Thanks
Bob

 

[infraredz]

Hi,
So if my understanding is correct then it doesn't make sense why you would want to use an oil along with the lecithin, because it seems it would be redundant to do so.

Is there something I'm missing in my understanding of the use of lecithin without the need to use oil or is there something the oil is doing that the lecithin is not to aid in the extraction process??

Also since, it's my understanding, the natural lecithin is removed during the oil refining process, does the oil really work as a substitute for lecithin or do only substances with fat in it work as a substitute (i.e. coconut milk, cow milk, soy milk, etc.)

Anyways I'm confused about what to do and would appreciate any insight someone could give to clarify my understanding and the use of lecithin and oil in my kavalactone extraction process.

Thanks
Bob

I would agree that using more than one lipid-rich substance is redundant. Lecithin is a very common and easy to use lipid when making kava, and I would say that any added oil would result in a pretty thick and viscous (read: nasty) grog. Basically, the kavalactones are only soluble in certain solvents due to its polarity (this is why nonpolar solvents extract EVERYTHING in kava) and lipids are nonpolar and thus could help emulsify the kavalactones.

That being said, whether or not lipids actually aid in the extraction process is purely anecdotal as of now so it's up to you.

 

[HeadHodge]

.....Basically, the kavalactones are only soluble in certain solvents due to its polarity (this is why nonpolar solvents extract EVERYTHING in kava) and lipids are nonpolar and thus could help emulsify the kavalactones.........

Thanks for the reply. Are you sure about the nonpolar part? I was looking around and found the following:

"Anywhere from 20 to 90% of lecithin in the supplement form contains the polar lipid known as phosphatidyl choline."
From: http://www.muscleandstrength.com/supplements/ingredients/lecithin.html

Or am I just misunderstanding something (I flunked chemistry in school)?

[EDIT]

Found this also:

"Lecithin is probably the most common phospholipid. It is found in egg yolks, wheat germ, and soybeans. Lecithin is extracted from soy beans for use as an emulsifying agent in foods. Lecithin is an emulsifier because it has both polar and non-polar properties, which enable it to cause the mixing of other fats and oils with water components."
From: http://chemwiki.ucdavis.edu/Biologi...Glycerides/Phosphoglycerides_or_Phospholipids

From reading this it seems (to me) Lecithin is acting as a bridge between non-polar fats and polar water to enable the combination (emulsification?) of the two. So if Kavalactones are non-polar and water is polar, it would make sense to me how you could get a stronger extract from using Lecithin. It's still unclear if oil (like vegetable oil or canola oil) has the same emulsifying properties.

 

[sɥɐʞɐs]

Here's the thing about about lecithin & oil; Properly squeezed, good kava works fine without it.
Many of us use/have used lecithin or oil in our mix and agree that while it may slightly increase potency...the amount is so negligible that one need not worry about it. It will not be the determining factor in whether your batch comes out strong or works well.

 

[HeadHodge]

Here's the thing about about lecithin & oil; Properly squeezed, good kava works fine without it.
Many of us use/have used lecithin or oil in our mix and agree that while it may slightly increase potency...the amount is so negligible that one need not worry about it. It will not be the determining factor in whether your batch comes out strong or works well.

Thanks for the reply. Out of curiosity, do you think using warmed/hot water helps to extract the kavalactones in any significant way?

Besides using Lecithin, I'm also thinking about pre-heating the water I use (up to but not boiling). I'm currently using room temp. water.

 

[Gourmet Hawaiian Kava]

I have tried it but I have never used it since that first trial, it did not make a big enough difference to me. Aloha

Chris

 

[kavadude]

Thanks for the reply. Out of curiosity, do you think using warmed/hot water helps to extract the kavalactones in any significant way?

Besides using Lecithin, I'm also thinking about pre-heating the water I use (up to but not boiling). I'm currently using room temp. water.

It almost certainly does, there is a big thread on whether or not to boil it actually.

Re: The lecithin I think the general thinking is that it might aid the emulsification process...but even if it does you could get the same effect by spending more time on prep. Never tried it myself. Have tried some oils and didn't find it to help at all.

 

[infraredz]

Thanks for the reply. Are you sure about the nonpolar part? I was looking around and found the following:

"Anywhere from 20 to 90% of lecithin in the supplement form contains the polar lipid known as phosphatidyl choline."
From: http://www.muscleandstrength.com/supplements/ingredients/lecithin.html

Or am I just misunderstanding something (I flunked chemistry in school)?

"Lecithin is probably the most common phospholipid. It is found in egg yolks, wheat germ, and soybeans. Lecithin is extracted from soy beans for use as an emulsifying agent in foods. Lecithin is an emulsifier because it has both polar and non-polar properties, which enable it to cause the mixing of other fats and oils with water components."
From: http://chemwiki.ucdavis.edu/Biologi...Glycerides/Phosphoglycerides_or_Phospholipids

From reading this it seems (to me) Lecithin is acting as a bridge between non-polar fats and polar water to enable the combination (emulsification?) of the two. So if Kavalactones are non-polar and water is polar, it would make sense to me how you could get a stronger extract from using Lecithin. It's still unclear if oil (like vegetable oil or canola oil) has the same emulsifying properties.

Yeah, that is all correct. What I was trying to say was that the lipids found in oils and lecithin are nonpolar by nature. The entirety of the substance itself might not be though and might contain polar substances as well.

As others have said, but I'll add one more person's experience, hot water definitely increases potency but makes the taste worse. I've also found like those above, that using an emulsifier doesn't do much of anything in terms of perceived effect. I actually have come to dislike it due to the way it increases the viscosity of an already viscous liquid.

 

[HeadHodge]

,,,,,,, hot water definitely increases potency but makes the taste worse..... .

Worse taste? Is that even possible??

Thanks for the replies. I already ordered some Lecithin from Amazon, so I'll experiment a little with it and without it, even though it sounds like I'll end up probably agreeing with what you and everyone is saying (in that it sounds like it won't make much of a difference either way).

I think I'll skip messing with the Canola anymore and I think I'll also try using warmer water and see how that goes. But based upon what everyone is saying, I doubt that I'll use boiling water (just something warmer than room temp., like maybe nuke the water for a minute or so before I use it).

I also think I'll try modifying my recipe to take the solids and liquids from my filtering and re-add them into the blender and blend again for a few minutes and filter again to see if I can get more lactones that way too.

My only problem now is that my bag of Stone is already almost gone, so I'll have to order some more to continue with my experiments. But just thinking of all the test batches I'll be trying is making me thirsty!!!

I have to admit I didn't expect the answer I got about using the Lecithin. I kinda thought it would have made a bigger difference in pulling out the lactones. So I'm glad I asked.

Regards
Bob

 

[krunkedout]

I remember I tried lecithin once... mine was in the form of granules, and It was a bitch to get those little buggers to dissolve into water. I ended up blending them with warm water. Before that I would just toss em in the strainer and squeeze the bag extra hard. I ended up concluding that there was too little of a difference to be noticeable. One thing that I do to make my batch nice and strong is to blend the kava and warm (not hot) water with a stick blender, then knead for 10-15 min. After this, i would take the used root and blend it some more with warm water, squeeze in a separate bowl, then add to first batch.

 

[Gourmet Hawaiian Kava]

@ Krunkedout . That is a good way to prepare the kava, how much water and how much kava do you use when you prepare your kava? Aloha

Chris

 

[krunkedout]

I usually will use about one cup of water for every 2-3 tablespoons of kava. My usually batch would normally have anywhere from 6-8 tablespoons of kava, so it would usually be somewhere around 3-4 cups of prepared kava (not including the second squeeze)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[HeadHodge]

I remember I tried lecithin once... mine was in the form of granules, and It was a bitch to get those little buggers to dissolve into water.

I'm not totally giving up on the concept of using an emulsifier to aid in the extraction of the kavalactones from the root powder.
After doing some more research I think I'm beginning to understand the basics of emulsification a little better.

I found an interesting link describing a good way to dissolve lecithin: soapmaker.com/lecithin-as-an-emulsifier-part-i-how-to-dissolve-lecithin-granules.html

According to this person the trick is to let the lecithin soak in the water solution for an hour or more during the "water phase" of your mix before adding the oil (in my case this would be the kava root powder).

But more interestingly I found that oils and emulsifiers have a rating called the HLB rating. It rates how friendly the emulsifier is to water and how friendly it is to oil. And importantly the key to proper emulsification is to properly match the rating of the emulsifier to the required HLB rating of the oil to be emulsified. For example, Olive (Olea Europaea) Oil "needs" an emulsifier with an HLB rating of 7 in order to mix the olive oil properly in water. But Lecithin only has an HLB rating of 4. So it wouldn't be the ideal emulsifier. In order to to improve this, the HLB ratings of emulsifiers have an additive effect, so if you could add an amount of something like Polysorbate 80 which has an HLB rating of 15 to the Lecithin in a proper ratio that would bump up the HLB to 7. By doing this you would have the most effective emulsifier to mix the Olive oil with water.
(I got all this data from: http://www.lotioncrafter.com/pdf/Emulsions_&_HLB_System.pdf)

So a couple of things jump out for me from this information. First the lecithin might not be properly mixed in the water in order to be effective. Second the HLB rating of the lecithin might not be proper for what I'm trying to do with it. But in order to figure that out I would need to know the RHLB (Required Hydrophile-Lipophile Balance) ratings of the Kavalactone oils. I don't have a clue if that info is available anywhere. Lastly Canola Oil, Soy Oil, Olive Oil all have a RHLB rating and not an HLB rating (like lecithin). So it appears that using these oils would not work at all as an emulsifier and it seems that in fact it would be counter-productive to try and use them as part of my Kavalactone extraction process.

According to the article the easiest obtainable substances to use (and combine) to make an emulsifier with the proper HLB ratings are:

Glyceryl Stearate [HLB = 3.8 ± 1]
Polysorbate 80 [HLB = 15 ± 1]
Ceteareth-20 [HLB = 15.2 ± 1]
Polysorbate 20 [HLB = 16.7 ± 1]

But without further research I don't know what substances you could buy that contain these chemicals. But even knowing wouldn't help much until I could find out the RHLB rating of the Kavalactones themselves, so that I could properly combine them to get the correct HLB rating.

I'm probably really over-thinking this whole thing, but I do find it extremely interesting.

Here are some more links where I got my info:
Explanation of HLB: http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.ca/2011/04/hlb-system-introduction.html
Links from: http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.com/2013/02/question-how-to-use-lecithin-as.html

Regards
Bob

 

[HeadHodge]

got a like for my last post here. i was looking at it and barely remember how much effort i use to put into drinking kava. nowdays its just instant plus water plus ice plus chug....,

 

[Plantacious]

Here's the thing about about lecithin & oil; Properly squeezed, good kava works fine without it.

Would this mean that for someone who cannot, or does not want, to take the extra time to knead thoroughly, that adding lecithin will save the time of extra kneading, and produce a product with similar potency ?

 

[sɥɐʞɐs]

Would this mean that for someone who cannot, or does not want, to take the extra time to knead thoroughly, that adding lecithin will save the time of extra kneading, and produce a product with similar potency ?

No, it means the #1 most important thing is that the kava is high in kavalactones and kneading it properly is where the vast majority of the potency comes from. Lecithin or oil only adds a very small little extra boost...and even then, there are always so many variables with kava on any given day, it's hard to say for sure that the lecithin is actually responsible.