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Could kava/alcohol toxicity be overstated, even in the kava community ?

Discussion in 'In-Depth Kava Discussion' started by Plantacious, Nov 13, 2019.

  1. SelfBiasResistor

    SelfBiasResistor Persist for Resistance!

    I agree 100%.

    Just look at the good using FUD did for the community when it came to the topic of tudei.. resulted in masses of confused and misinformed consumers (the tudei is responsible for liver failure talk, all of the roughly 100 cultivars are bad and have no possible future benefit, etc). FUD is also the most common tactic for competing industries and US government regulators to demonize and restrict consumer access to herbs. It's an effective tactic when there is lack of science to back up the opinions/recommendations but sowing fear and uncertainty is a good way to risk the future availability of kava.
  2. SelfBiasResistor

    SelfBiasResistor Persist for Resistance!

    It is more common with Asians. I don't think we would have the historical advancements in wine/beer if Europeans were in general poor ethanol metabolizers.
    Kapmcrunk likes this.
  3. kasa_balavu

    kasa_balavu Yaqona Dina

    I guess my use of "FUD" in that comment was a mistake since it's open to interpretation. I didn't mean to go out and lie about it. I've never done so. The truth itself sows Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt... and that's what people need to hear when they ask about mixing kava with alcohol. Mixing them can cause bad shit to happen. We won't hear about the 100 times it worked out ok, just the 1 time will be heard all over the world since kava will be blamed when you kill a pedestrian with your car or keel over and die from liver failure.


    People are now well informed of the risks of tudei kava, the kava supply chains have been rid of adulterated kava and people no longer regularly get sick from kava bought online. People who want to consume tudei kava for medicinal purposes can now be sure they are getting it (often with lab confirmation that they're actually getting tudei and not noble). And noble kava is on its way to becoming recognised as a food internationally. If as you claim, FUD did that, then more FUD please.

    In reality it was just people doing what they could to protect their health and help others avoid illness, and most importantly try and ensure that kava avoided governmental scrutiny. They did this by amplifying the concerns of the scientists, and the people of the Pacific Islands.

    Just be content that you have access to kava of cultivars of your choosing now, and thank GS for that.
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2019
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  4. Zaphod

    Zaphod Kava Enthusiast

    Yes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol_flush_reaction
    "Approximately 30 to 50% of East Asians (Chinese, Japanese, and Koreans) show characteristic physiological responses to drinking alcohol that includes facial flushing, nausea, headaches and a fast heart rate."
    and
    "Around 90% of East Asians carry an allele of the gene coding for the enzyme alcohol dehydrogenase called ADH1B*2, which results in the alcohol dehydrogenase enzyme converting alcohol to toxic acetaldehyde more quickly than other gene variants common outside of Asia.[5][13] In about 50% of East Asians, the rapid accumulation of acetaldehyde is worsened by another gene variant, the mitochondrial ALDH2*2 allele, which results in a less functional acetaldehyde dehydrogenase enzyme, responsible for the breakdown of acetaldehyde."
  5. fait

    fait Position 5 Hard Support

    I'm no geneticist but this would also explain why a lot of indigenous peoples of (north) Asia and why many (North and South) American Indians have low alcohol tolerances. A bit off-topic, I apologize.
  6. Zaphod

    Zaphod Kava Enthusiast

    Not necessarily off topic. The same gene expression/coding (not sure the right wording) could also be the reason some folks have bad reactions to kava as well. It just isn't as well understood because relative to alcohol there are very few kava drinkers.
    Kapmcrunk likes this.

  7. To add to the list, I speculate that ethanol might extract a component that ordinarily has low bioavailability yielding tudei-like effects.
  8. Mo'iety

    Mo'iety Kava Enthusiast

    Ethanol definitely extracts the flavokavains (FKA and FKB) much more readily than water.[1] We don't know much about the physiology of FKB and whether it contributes to tudei-like effects, but it's definitely more prevalent in tudei than noble kava roots and studies show it to be considerably more cytotoxic than the kavalactones. So it's certainly something to avoid.

    [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4218769/#!po=16.6667
    kasa_balavu and VictoriousSpoon like this.
  9. RevRad

    RevRad Member

    Anecdotally, I just drank 2 or 3 standard drinks worth of whiskey about 5 hours after drinking a TON of kava (had a rough day), at least 2 or 3x what I normally make, no problems whatsoever. Caucasian, never had any of those alcohol reactions I've heard people speak of without kava either. Not saying it's a smart idea but it's up to the individual to make the choice. 2 or 3 standard drinks for me is a lot, I am COMPLETELY wasted by 4 on an empty stomach, any more absolutely 100% would make me vomit regardless of kava.