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How long does Kava take to Extract ?

Discussion in 'In-Depth Kava Discussion' started by keeron, May 26, 2014.

  1. keeron

    keeron Kava Enthusiast

    Hi,
    How long do you think Kava / Lactones will take to Extract in 80 Proof Vodka, 40% ?
    Im about to make an extract using 80 proof Vodka, such as Smirnoff. (I dont trust solvents like acetone or 99% pure IPA or Ethanol).
    I know that in acetone and Isopropyl alcohol extracts, Kava is left for an hour to sit and then left to evaporate.

    How long will i need to let the Kava sit in the 80 Proof Vodka Solvent ? Do you know from experience ??
    Or if you have an estimation on how long it would take to extract the kavalactones before it gets evaporated.

    Edit: Oh. And this is only for Occasional Use, e.g Twice a Week Max, On Friday Or Saturday Or Both, No more than 2 days in a row and also taking weekly breaks once every few weeks And im going to be taking it Sublingual via under the tongue.

    Thanks
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2014
  2. HeadHodge

    HeadHodge Kneads Kava

    Hi keeron,

    I think I remember seeing a posting somewhere that uses that technique. But I'm pretty sure it's not here. The use of alcohol mixed with Kava is sort of discouraged, because if not done properly, it could be unhealthy or even potentially dangerous.

    So I'm not going to personally say don't do it. But I would say that if you do, Please be Careful!!!
  3. keeron

    keeron Kava Enthusiast

    Yeah i know, ive taken all the precautions necessary.

    The problems were found with Ethanol, not Acetone, i may use acetone in the future.
    BUt Something doesnt sit right with me, extracting herbs with nail polish remover , lol..
    I want to keep the thread focused, on how long or what is necessary to extract kavalactones using vodka / weaker alcohols..
    And btw im going to be taking this extract Sublingual, via under the tongue.

    Thanks for your concerns and your input though, :happy:.
  4. HeadHodge

    HeadHodge Kneads Kava

    Well not only mixing the two are questionable, I believe that the alcohol actually extracts some bad stuff from the Kava root. Maybe @infraredz would clarify if that's true or not. (if he wants to comment at all on this topic)
  5. infraredz

    infraredz BULA!

    "The extraction process (aqueous vs. acetone in the two types of preparations) is responsible for the difference in toxicity as extraction of glutathione in addition to the kava lactones is important to provide protection against hepatotoxicity"
    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0031942203003819

    "However, several reports of hepatotoxicity have been linked to the consumption of kava extracts in Western countries, where mainly ethanolic or acetonic extracts are used. The mechanism of toxicity has not been established, although several theories have been put forward.
    The composition of the major constituents, the kava lactones, varies according to preparation method and species of kava plant, and thus, the toxicity of the individual lactones has been tested in order to establish whether a single lactone or a certain composition of lactones may be responsible for the increased prevalence of kava-induced hepatotoxicity in Western countries.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21506562

    "Some manufacturers highly concentrate the lactone content in their extracts.
    As a consequence, important compounds are left out and the effects are different from those produced by the traditional juice beverage.
    An unfortunate example of the “different effects” would be those resulting in the liver toxicity that has been reported to occur with use of commercially concentrated extracts made with chemical solvents."

    "The extraction process utilizes acetone or alcohol and produces a sticky paste, which has little resemblance to the natural form of Kava in use in the South Pacific.
    It is possible that the recently developed chemical processing introduces compounds into the standardized product that can affect the liver.
    Another possibility is that the chemical solvents used do not extract the same compounds as the natural water extracts in traditional use. The extraction process may exclude important modifying constituents soluble only in water."

    "These Aboriginal individuals consumed approximately 375 grams of dried whole root of Kava as a beverage in water per week. Generally, available Kava averages about 9% kavalactones and as a water extract 5% would be made available in the prepared beverage.
    Therefore, the assumption can be made that 2700 milligrams (over 12 times the recommended dose) of total kavalactones was consumed daily for 6 years and these people had no liver symptoms but did have a liver enzyme elevation.
    Compare this to one death and multiple liver transplants with patients who used standardized extracts. These patients had used those standardized products for less than a year and only marginally exceed the recommended dose of 210 mg/day.
    Another smaller group of Aboriginals consumed about 100 grams per week (which is 3 times the suggested dose of the standardized extract) and had no symptoms. These individuals were former abusers of alcohol and in poor health when the study began.
    This study supports the use of Kava as a water extract as compared to the liver toxicity
    associated with standardized extract form."

    "The German medical literature also reports a standardized ethanolic extract of kava with concentrated lactones, was the probable cause of hepatitis in another woman who required a liver transplant. [3]"
    [3]. Kraft M, Spahn TW, Menzel J et al. Fulminant liver failure after administration of the herbal
    antidepressant Kava-Kava. Dtsch. Med. Wschr., 126:970-972, 2001 [in German]
    http://www.eclecticherb.com/kava/pdf/4page.pdf


    "A recent WHO risk assessment concluded that “clinical trial of kava have not revealed hepatoxicity as a problem5 suggesting that “water extracts are devoid of toxic effects” [6] and recommending that “products should be developed from water-based suspensions of kava” [7]."
    [6] WHO (2007): Assessment of the risk of hepatotoxicity with kava products, p. 59
    [7] WHO (2007): Assessment of the risk of hepatotoxicity with kava products, p. 62
    "In 2005, Food Safety Australia and New Zealand reported the health risk assessment of kava and the associated hepatoxicity from commercial acetonic or ethanolic kava extract marketed [...]"
    http://www.kavaforums.com/forum/attachments/codex-madang-na12_kava_draft-pdf.64/

    "It is important to note that although Western “industrial” kava preparations are mainly extracted with organic solvents (e.g., ethanol,acetone), traditional kava drinks are prepared by dipping the kava roots/rhizomes in water or coconut juice with an apparently safe history"

    "We report herein that organic solvent-extracted kava root extracts contain high levels of FKB that induce severe hepatocellular toxicity through inducing oxidative stress, modulating IKK/NF-κB and MAPK signaling pathways.It is therefore concluded that FKB is the major, and perhaps the exclusive, chalcone contributing to the hepatotoxicity of kava extracts, and its levels should be tightly monitored and controlled during preparation of kava root extracts if organic solvents are used for extraction."

    "Traditionally, extraction of these compounds is performed using aqueous solutions, yielding relatively low levels of kavalactones (~4.6%, Table 1). Modern extraction techniques using organic solvents (e.g., acetone, ethanol) yield significantly higher levels of kavalactones (~45–55%, Table 1), and dramatically higher levels of lipophilic chalcones in the extract (~160-fold for FKB, Table 1).
    Recently organic extracts of kava root rhizomes, sold as over-the-counter herbal supplements, were reported to induce severe hepatotoxicity."

    "In agreement with this in vivo observation, our data (Fig. 1A) showed that indeed kavalactones had no significant effects on the viability of selected liver cell lines.
    On the other hand, we show here that chalcones, compounds that are dramatically enriched in organic solvent-based extractions (Table 1), were accountable for the observed hepatotoxicity (Fig. 1)."

    "In summary, we showed that in organic solvent-extracted kava root extracts, chalcones, and especially FKB are dramatically enriched. We also demonstrated that FKB is a potent hepatotoxin that induces hepatocellular apoptosis."
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2992378/


    "FKB was also present in ethanolic extracts of roots of the two-days cultivar Palisi from Vanuatu with a ten-fold higher amount compared to the noble cultivar Ava La’au from Samoa (DiSilvestro, Zhang, & DiSilvestro, 2007). In dried roots of an unknown cultivar from Vanuatu, analysis by gas-chromatography–mass spectrometry (GC–MS) showed for FKB peak areas of 0.1% and 0.5% for aqueous and acetonic extracts respectively (Xuan et al.,2008)."

    "Kavalactones were then extracted using organic solvents but alkaloids were most likely extracted too and so probably were flavokavins (Teschke et al., 2009)."
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24423570


    "In 2003, cases of hepatotoxicity in connection with the use of Western acetonic and ethanolic kava products were reported; at the same time, it was observed that liver toxicity had not been documented with traditional water-based kava extracts used in Pacific countries, such as the South Pacific Islands and Australia [6, 7]."

    "Therefore, the five studies all showed either normal or slightly increased ALT and AST values, and in none of these studies was there evidence for clinically relevant hepatocellular injury [1418]. This is in contrast to high ALT and AST values observed in patients who used ethanolic or acetonic kava extracts [12, 13].
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3269575/
    Last edited: May 26, 2014
    kasa_balavu, violet and HeadHodge like this.
  6. infraredz

    infraredz BULA!

    That is obviously not exhaustive when one considers the vast amount of research available, but needless to say, there is quite a lot of evidence that shows there is at the very least, a probable increase in toxicity of solvent extractions than with traditional, aqueous extractions.

    Again, why would we deviate from traditional uses when we know that traditional uses of daily drinking kava is completely safe?
  7. keeron

    keeron Kava Enthusiast

    For me, its Because the traditional method makes me nauseous.
    And its also because i dont want to drink kava, you could also ask why do Kava vendors sell extracts, its because people want other ways of taking kava.
    I dont have the time to make Kava and i havent experienced any effects from the traditional method.

    I want to try this extract to see if i can finally acheive these Anti- Anxiety effects which so many people have talked about.
    Because, as of yet ive experienced nothing from Kava. Ive done the traditional method so many times and its never worked. The toss and wash method works for me, i feel effects from putting kava powder in my mouth and then downing.

    Im also taking it sublingualy. (The Extract i plan on doing)
    I respect the Traditional method, but its not for me. And the traditional method is Chewing The Kava Root and spitting it out into the brew (as you know), not buying Ground root and putting it in a blender like so many people do nowadays.
    So the Kava brew we do is a deviation of the original method of Chewing the kava root, because we cant get Kava Roots unless they are frozen.

    So if we was to be traditional, we would be chewing kava root and using the chewed root for a brew not buying ground up kava root from a vendor.

    Does anyone know how long it would need to sit in Alcohol , Specifically Vodka, (80 Proof Vodka) ?
    This thread has gone off topic from the first post lol..
    Please no more advice or dangers on Kava. I already know this, ive researched it. :joyful:

    Can anyone help me with my question ????.. Much love.. .
    Thanks!!!

    Last edited: May 26, 2014
  8. HeadHodge

    HeadHodge Kneads Kava

    The only one I'm aware of: Witches Forge Tincture
    keeron likes this.
  9. keeron

    keeron Kava Enthusiast

    Thanks for your effort, i appreciate it . (y)

    The only reason i started this thread is because i saw a recipe using Vodka, but it said let the Kava sit in the vodka for 2 weeks.
    And i was thinking is that how long it takes ? So i asked that question on this forum.

    Maybe i should of asked the question better and also linked this recipe that i found.
    Check it here http://kingkava.com/making-kava-extract/

    Im evaporating all of the alcohol, theres not way im taking Kava with alcohol in a tincture . LOL..
    Im planing on creating a sort of Kava Paste or Kava Extract Paste, with the Alcohol Evaporated.

    Im asking this because the extract in Acetone or Isopropyl Alcohol only takes 1 hour and then a few hours to evaporate all of the alcohol or acetone.
    Last edited: May 26, 2014
  10. StinkWeed

    StinkWeed Kava Enthusiast

    I know this has already been said, but I really think extracts should be used as an occasional thing, to supplement your normal grog. Even with all the precautions you're taking, why risk it?
  11. keeron

    keeron Kava Enthusiast

    I only planned on using the Extracts occasionally , i planned to use it on weekends when i go out or visit friends.
    I plan on making my own paste, to use sublingual (Under the Tongue), i dont plan on ingesting it, so i see no major risk.
    People do way more damage from ingesting Alcohol and taking their daily medications.

    I see no more risk in taking Kava Extracts on a weekend, As compared to a Daily Paracetamol or Alcohol or other drugs that a huge amount of people do.

    I eat a (Sugar Free / Gluten Free) healthy diet and consume moderate amounts of Milk Thistle, NAC, Sam-e and other liver supporting herbs & substances.
    I dont drink alcohol, do drugs or smoke, so Kava is essentially, the riskiest thing i do.
    Im willing to take the risk on Kava. More specifically Kava Extracts.

    I dont think you should be worrying about Kava as much as anything else you ingest : ''More than 900 drugs, toxins, and herbs have been reported to cause liver injury, and drugs account for 20-40% of all instances of fulminant hepatic failure'' ''In the United States, approximately 2000 cases of acute liver failure occur annually and drugs account for over 50% of them (39% are due to acetaminophen (Paracetamol), 13% are idiosyncratic reactions due to other medications).''

    Lifestyle factors and Diet play a massive part, if you simply are not healthy then i would not bother with any herbs let alone kava, (except for milk thistle which is safe). Herbal medicine, not just Kava has been show to be hepatoxic, aswell as your ''Safe'' daily Tea, such as Green Tea & Rooibos Tea.
    So Kava has been unfairly picked on. And I advise everyone to take Milk Thistle Daily, even if you don't drink Alcohol or Kava.
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2014
    Roaddog, Henry and StinkWeed like this.
  12. StinkWeed

    StinkWeed Kava Enthusiast

    Sorry for this misunderstanding! I thought it was going to be a nightly thing.
    keeron likes this.
  13. keeron

    keeron Kava Enthusiast

    No worries!! Its mostly my fault for not fully explaining everything in my first post.
    Which im now going to edit. lol
  14. Roaddog

    Roaddog Kava Who?

    Yes milk thistle is good stuff. It actually grows around here, everywhere. I'm constantly bush hogging the stuff. My wife extracts her own. For its liver healing properties. Its a pretty plant with a vivid purple flower. Its kind of prickly too. Its a beautiful plant with beautiful benefits.
    keeron and StinkWeed like this.
  15. darjo

    darjo New Member

    I also need a method to take kava without the taste ------- been trying on and off for about a year and just can't adapt to the flavor , kava causes me stomach upset and

    worse but I do enjoy the mental results the times I am not too nauseous. I've tried about five regular grinds and four instants from vendors on this site.

    Here is my question for anyone, if I decide to make an extract with alcohol or acetone, and want to make it as safe as possible ,

    couldn't I make my extract from a kava powder that is already a "water extracted" like an instant kava ?

    Since we ingest the total powder without filtering when we use instant powder anyway , how could the extraction be adding any toxins that our

    bodies are not already digesting?
    TidyMinion likes this.
  16. Kapmcrunk

    Kapmcrunk The Kaptain of Crunk KavaForums Founder

    Now that's a good question. It probably hasn't been done due to instant kava being so expensive and difficult to produce. As for the taste, I think you may be out of luck unless you go and capsulate instant kava or some sort of pre-extracted co2 paste.
  17. kavadude

    kavadude ❦ॐ tanuki tamer

    Makes sense but --why not just cap it?
    infraredz likes this.
  18. darjo

    darjo New Member

    I did buy a capping device and capped some instants but I've found that I need to take about ,20 caps, for an effect.

    One tablespoon = about fifteen ,00 caps, and I need at least a tablespoon and a half.

    I am hopping by doing an extract of an instant I would be able to reduce the amount needed to a much smaller number of caps.

    I did purchase some of the co2 extract from Paradise but found it to be less effective than the powdered instants for me.

    Which brings up another question I have. Why does co2 seem be an accepted method of extraction on the forum as compared to alcohol or acetone.

    I know in the cannabis world of extracts, co2 is considered the cleanest when it comes to solvent impurities, but for kava the concern is to

    avoid extracting toxic substances from the kava. Is there any evidence that co2 somehow avoids kava toxins that alcohol and acetone extract.

    Thanks for the ideas, I may try to extract some instant powder later this summer just to see how it goes.
  19. infraredz

    infraredz BULA!

    darjo likes this.
  20. Legbuh

    Legbuh New Member

    Try this..

    https://www.purecbdvapors.com/product/inspire-juul-compatible-cbd-vape-pod/

    They sell a starter kit too if you don't have a Juul or compatible device. I've used Kava traditionally for a few years. Never really got much from drinking it. I tried some extracts from a company that no longer is in business and they were amazing (little small jars with honey flavor). Just a small dab under the tongue was great.

    Then I tried the CBD/Kava/Mint Juul. I quit smoking in 2012 so I wasn't really excited about "smoking" or vaping but I tell you what... this is just as good as the extracts and WAY better than drinking it. It even has a slight Kava taste. 2 hits did more for me than a cup of Kava prepared traditionally.

    I'm now looking at making my own "juice" by comparing how it's done with other herbs. Shouldn't be that hard.
    HeadHodge likes this.