Just a few questions about kava in comparison to medications

[Kava Time]

So i have been born and bred in fiji and have very little understanding of what is the motivation behind western kava consumers. I do briefly understand that kava is taken sometimes as a alternative to medications but i dont really understand the reasons behind it.

How does medication prices compare to kava? what is the reason that people tend to go for kava rather than actual medicines? what medications can be substituted for kava? what do you as a consumer look for in kava strains that makes you purchase? relief from social anxiety? stress? sleep? i want to know basically the 1 main reason why you consume kava - if its for medication substitute - what medication, how much does it cost and how does the cost compare compared to taking kava.

Do insurance companies cover anxiety medications? i am just perplexed about this and wondering if users can enlighten me with what whats going on in USA

 

[sɥɐʞɐs]

Many people find kava as a replacement for prescribed benzodiazepines. Those are anti-anxiety drugs like Xanax, Valium, Klonopin etc... They're very good at what they do, but they give you the same addiction and withdrawal that an alcoholic would have. Side effects, black outs and odd behavior at high doses can also lead people away.

People who are looking to get off alcohol or other recreational drugs will sometimes turn to kava, since it's a safer, healthier alternative, with no addiction or withdrawal but still has a nice enjoyable buzz, yet never gets you in trouble and is also legal. It also works great for sleep problems, that's one of the main reasons I originally kept coming back to it, even when I wasn't feeling the full effects initially.

I think most people who are using kava medicinally are also enjoying it recreationally.
As for prices, anxiety meds are typically going to be acquired through your insurance and I think they can be pretty cheap these days, with a relatively small co-pay.

Prices for alcohol can vary drastically, there are 750 ml bottles of Vodka for $7 and there are other bottles that cost $50 for the same amount and every price in between. If you drink cheap liquor every day, I'd say it's cheaper than drinking kava every day. But if you drink more expensive liquor, then kava might be cheaper...especially if you're lucky enough to be a kava light weight...which I'm not, so I consider kava to be quite expensive.

 

[Kava Time]

Many people find kava as a replacement for prescribed benzodiazepines. Those are anti-anxiety drugs like Xanax, Valium, Klonopin etc... They're very good at what they do, but they give you the same addiction and withdrawal that an alcoholic would have. Side effects, black outs and odd behavior at high doses can also lead people away.

People who are looking to get off alcohol or other recreational drugs will sometimes turn to kava, since it's a safer, healthier alternative, with no addiction or withdrawal but still has a nice enjoyable buzz, yet never gets you in trouble and is also legal. It also works great for sleep problems, that's one of the main reasons I originally kept coming back to it, even when I wasn't feeling the full effects initially.

I think most people who are using kava medicinally are also enjoying it recreationally.
As for prices, anxiety meds are typically going to be acquired through your insurance and I think they can be pretty cheap these days, with a relatively small co-pay.

Prices for alcohol can vary drastically, there are 750 ml bottles of Vodka for $7 and there are other bottles that cost $50 for the same amount and every price in between. If you drink cheap liquor every day, I'd say it's cheaper than drinking kava every day. But if you drink more expensive liquor, then kava might be cheaper...especially if you're lucky enough to be a kava light weight...which I'm not, so I consider kava to be quite expensive.

Thanks for the explanation! so you are taking kava even though it is expensive because there are almost no side effects aside from the dermo? i guess most members here perfer herbal medications over man made drugs if they are looking for medication alternatives?
Do you think that alcohol rehab centers should promote kava consumption in that sense? to help people get over alcohol addiction? Do you know if any groups or rehab centers which do this?

 

[sɥɐʞɐs]

Thanks for the explanation! so you are taking kava even though it is expensive because there are almost no side effects aside from the dermo? i guess most members here perfer herbal medications over man made drugs if they are looking for medication alternatives?
Do you think that alcohol rehab centers should promote kava consumption in that sense? to help people get over alcohol addiction? Do you know if any groups or rehab centers which do this?

No, I haven't heard of any major rehabs that promote kava. There are occasionally small centers and some doctors that experiment with using psychedelic drugs and other things to remedy addiction problems...and there might be some fringe hippie holistic treatment centers that try using herbs, possibly kava as treatment.

But in general, no, the most popular treatment is Alcoholics Anonymous / Narcotics Anonymous and they wouldn't likely allow for kava usage, especially if you enjoy it. On a member to member basis, some members will drink kava, rightly so, as they have learned that it's safe and causes no trouble in your life and have personally allowed themselves to do so. Other members have a religious-like fear and attachment to being very strict about never taking any substance...although coffee and cigarette addiction is greatly enjoyed.

I personally believe kava would improve the success rate of people's sobriety and should be clearly allowed for, if not also heavily promoted. Some days, some events, certain stresses can be enough to make people give up and break their sobriety. In those moments, I feel like drinking kava could relieve a person enough that they don't need to fall back on a worse substance of abuse.

There should be an education about kava and it's safety...the addict should be sober for some period of time and cleared with a good bill of health...and after that...the kava should flow into their bellies, as little or as much as needed, though still with an encouragement of moderation, to keep them off their previous vice.

It's actually a huge failure or a huge over-sight that kava isn't already used/promoted this way.

 

[verticity]

For me, I used to take benzodiazepines for anxiety. They caused all kinds of problems: they altered my personality in such a way that I was "not myself"; I was actually a worse person. I got addicted to them and it was really hard to stop.

I also have had problems with major depression, so I have taken a variety of antidepressant medications. They were often very helpful. Very recently I stopped taking the antidepressant medication I had been using, for a variety of reasons, including side effects like weight gain, and also just feeling that I didn't need them.

So for me, kava is very helpful for both anxiety and depression.

When I was taking psychiatric medication I was fortunate that I have health insurance, so I paid very little for the medications. With insurance, I would typically spend about $20 per month on my medication. For people who don't have insurance, the medications are much more expensive.

For Xanax, a typical dosage is 1 mg per day. The price for alprazolam (generic version of Xanax) appears to be about $20 for a 1-month supply without insurance. The price for brand name Xanax is higher, like $100. Source

I'm actually surprised that alprazolam is so cheap, and it is really unfortunately that kava is actually relatively expensive by comparison.

In the case of antidepressants, I'll look at the one I was using, venlafaxine. Note, although it is an antidepressant, venlafaxine is also used to treat some anxiety disorders. Actually a lot of antidepressants are prescribed for anxiety as well as depression, because most doctors think benzodiazapines are too dangerous for long term use, and the antidepressants are relatively safe. However, in my personal experience, antidepressants are not very effective for anxiety. In fact, for me they are not effective at all for that purpose, although there are scientific studies that show that they can be for some people. For social anxiety specifically, the old fashioned MAO antidepressant Nardil is supposed to be pretty effective, but it is rarely used because it can have very dangerous side effects if patients don't follow a very strict special diet to avoid certain foods. (As I recall, the foods to avoid on the MAO diet include cheese, soup, fish and New Zealand Prickly Pears. http://deoxy.org/maoidiet.htm . I think the New Zealand Prickly Pear warning was just due to a case report of a guy who ate huge amounts of them. I am not making this up.)

I was taking 300 mg per day of venlafaxine ER (generic Effexor) which would have cost about $160 per month without insurance.

There are a lot of newer antidepressants that are not available as generic, so to choose a random example: There is a new SNRI type antidepressant called Fetzima (the creativity of the drug companies in coming up with these names is really boundless). The maximum recommended dosage is 120 mg per day. A one month supply would cost about $325 without insurance.

So that should give a rough idea. Another thing to know is that many people take more than one medication. Sometimes people take multiple different antidepressants and other things at the same time to attempt to get the meds to work better. It's actually pretty ridiculous that many psychiatrists are willing to prescribe drug combinations like this. It is not really scientific: basically the doctor just tries different combinations of drugs until the patient stops complaining. But, anyway, the result is that a patient's bill for medications might be much higher if they are on multiple meds.

Now, in the case of benzodiazepines, there is also an illegal market for them. That is the way some people get them. This site aggregates reports of street prices for illegally sold medications:
http://streetrx.com/
Obviously the numbers will be highly variable, but one data point says it costs $6 for a single 0.5 mg Xanax pill on the street. For a month supply purchased illegally, that would be a total of $360.
Legal and safe kava is a really good deal in comparison with that!

I live in Colorado where marijuana is legal, and is also considered a medicine for some people, so I should talk about that too. According to this site:
https://www.coloradopotguide.com/co...es-in-denver-and-colorado-summer-2016-update/
it appears that marijuana costs about $10 per gram here. I don't use marijuana myself, so I really have no idea how long that would last for a regular user, or what the monthly expense would be. This price is for legal marijuana in my state. In the majority of states where it is illegal it is about $20-30 per gram according to this site:
http://www.priceofweed.com/prices/United-States.html

 

[Kava Time]

For me, I used to take benzodiazepines for anxiety. They caused all kinds of problems: they altered my personality in such a way that I was "not myself"; I was actually a worse person. I got addicted to them and it was really hard to stop.

I also have had problems with major depression, so I have taken a variety of antidepressant medications. They were often very helpful. Very recently I stopped taking the antidepressant medication I had been using, for a variety of reasons, including side effects like weight gain, and also just feeling that I didn't need them.

So for me, kava is very helpful for both anxiety and depression.

When I was taking psychiatric medication I was fortunate that I have health insurance, so I paid very little for the medications. With insurance, I would typically spend about $20 per month on my medication. For people who don't have insurance, the medications are much more expensive.

For Xanax, a typical dosage is 1 mg per day. The price for alprazolam (generic version of Xanax) appears to be about $20 for a 1-month supply without insurance. The price for brand name Xanax is higher, like $100. Source

I'm actually surprised that alprazolam is so cheap, and it is really unfortunately that kava is actually relatively expensive by comparison.

In the case of antidepressants, I'll look at the one I was using, venlafaxine. Note, although it is an antidepressant, venlafaxine is also used to treat some anxiety disorders. Actually a lot of antidepressants are prescribed for anxiety as well as depression, because most doctors think benzodiazapines are too dangerous for long term use, and the antidepressants are relatively safe. However, in my personal experience, antidepressants are not very effective for anxiety. In fact, for me they are not effective at all for that purpose, although there are scientific studies that show that they can be for some people. For social anxiety specifically, the old fashioned MAO antidepressant Nardil is supposed to be pretty effective, but it is rarely used because it can have very dangerous side effects if patients don't follow a very strict special diet to avoid certain foods. (As I recall, the foods to avoid on the MAO diet include cheese, soup, fish and New Zealand Prickly Pears. http://deoxy.org/maoidiet.htm . I think the New Zealand Prickly Pear warning was just due to a case report of a guy who ate huge amounts of them. I am not making this up.)

I was taking 300 mg per day of venlafaxine ER (generic Effexor) which would have cost about $160 per month without insurance.

There are a lot of newer antidepressants that are not available as generic, so to choose a random example: There is a new SNRI type antidepressant called Fetzima (the creativity of the drug companies in coming up with these names is really boundless). The maximum recommended dosage is 120 mg per day. A one month supply would cost about $325 without insurance.

So that should give a rough idea. Another thing to know is that many people take more than one medication. Sometimes people take multiple different antidepressants and other things at the same time to attempt to get the meds to work better. It's actually pretty ridiculous that many psychiatrists are willing to prescribe drug combinations like this. It is not really scientific: basically the doctor just tries different combinations of drugs until the patient stops complaining. But, anyway, the result is that a patient's bill for medications might be much higher if they are on multiple meds.

Now, in the case of benzodiazepines, there is also an illegal market for them. That is the way some people get them. This site aggregates reports of street prices for illegally sold medications:
http://streetrx.com/
Obviously the numbers will be highly variable, but one data point says it costs $6 for a single 0.5 mg Xanax pill on the street. For a month supply purchased illegally, that would be a total of $360.
Legal and safe kava is a really good deal in comparison with that!

I live in Colorado where marijuana is legal, and is also considered a medicine for some people, so I should talk about that too. According to this site:
https://www.coloradopotguide.com/co...es-in-denver-and-colorado-summer-2016-update/
it appears that marijuana costs about $10 per gram here. I don't use marijuana myself, so I really have no idea how long that would last for a regular user, or what the monthly expense would be. This price is for legal marijuana in my state. In the majority of states where it is illegal it is about $20-30 per gram according to this site:
http://www.priceofweed.com/prices/United-States.html

Wow it would really be a nightmare for a person without insurance to be on meds. i guess the cheaper meds may have more side effects? eventually the medications would stop working as your body gets use to it and then you could feeel urge to increase your intake making it even more expensive. i think in that sense kava is a pretty good deal? what you could maximum take 2 lbs of medium a month which doesnt work to be more that $120. Here in fiji i dont think we have a major issues with anxiety or depression? what do you think @kasa_balavu ? alcohol is a problem everywhere so no difference there

 

[Kava Time]

No, I haven't heard of any major rehabs that promote kava. There are occasionally small centers and some doctors that experiment with using psychedelic drugs and other things to remedy addiction problems...and there might be some fringe hippie holistic treatment centers that try using herbs, possibly kava as treatment.

But in general, no, the most popular treatment is Alcoholics Anonymous / Narcotics Anonymous and they wouldn't likely allow for kava usage, especially if you enjoy it. On a member to member basis, some members will drink kava, rightly so, as they have learned that it's safe and causes no trouble in your life and have personally allowed themselves to do so. Other members have a religious-like fear and attachment to being very strict about never taking any substance...although coffee and cigarette addiction is greatly enjoyed.

I personally believe kava would improve the success rate of people's sobriety and should be clearly allowed for, if not also heavily promoted. Some days, some events, certain stresses can be enough to make people give up and break their sobriety. In those moments, I feel like drinking kava could relieve a person enough that they don't need to fall back on a worse substance of abuse.

There should be an education about kava and it's safety...the addict should be sober for some period of time and cleared with a good bill of health...and after that...the kava should flow into their bellies, as little or as much as needed, though still with an encouragement of moderation, to keep them off their previous vice.

It's actually a huge failure or a huge over-sight that kava isn't already used/promoted this way.

I am actually happy that kava bars in US are in the rise because they could easily reach out to alcoholics who could consider kava as a great alternative. its just the K@ part which is an issue with them and then the quality of kava which they serve

 

[kasa_balavu]

Here in fiji i dont think we have a major issues with anxiety or depression? what do you think @kasa_balavu ?

I think we do, but we keep it to ourselves. Mental illnesses carry a very heavy stigma here, and add to that the "be a man and deal with it" mentality, it's an ignored issue.
That said, I don't imagine it would be as bad as it is in the rat race of the developed world.

 

[nickbroken]

Use it for anxiety myself, it'd really that or an SSRI or a benzo. I don't want to do am ssri because I don't want the side effects and the lingering after effects when you wean off. I have taken Xanax a few times and it is amazing for panic attacks, too amazing really. I would always get very euphoric when I took them and that worried me because I didn't want to become addicted. I know people that are and they literally cannot get off off of it. Cost isn't really the big issue since there sre generic forms I just feel the risk isnt worth the reward.
Kava is a bit expensive depending on how much you use, but the amount I use for anxiety and for recreational are very different. Also since switching to micro for anxiety the cost has gone way down since I feel micro is stronger and you need less to get what you need. I just stick half a teaspoon ground under my tongue and let it absorb it's fast and it knocks anxiety out. Medium grind I'd for recreational now which id maybe a day or two a week if that.
Kava doesn't work as well as traditional medicine and might cost more, but the side effects and dependency aren't worth it to me at least. Kava doesn't bother me, I got a bad bit of dermo on my leg when I first started taking it then it just sent away and nothing since. Also I find the problem with meds, or vendors at least is they take away anxiety completely and I don't thinknits healthy to be totally immune to anxiety. Kava will take my anxiety from a 8-10 and bring it to a 3 or lower depending which id manageable and helps me work through it without being wasted. All in all kava for me thanks.

Warning may be a lot of typos on a cell, auto correct hates me.

 

[verticity]

Wow it would really be a nightmare for a person without insurance to be on meds. i guess the cheaper meds may have more side effects? eventually the medications would stop working as your body gets use to it and then you could feeel urge to increase your intake making it even more expensive. i think in that sense kava is a pretty good deal? what you could maximum take 2 lbs of medium a month which doesnt work to be more that $120. Here in fiji i dont think we have a major issues with anxiety or depression? what do you think @kasa_balavu ? alcohol is a problem everywhere so no difference there

I don't think the biology of Fijians is any different than that of people here, so I'm sure people do have mental illnesses there. Like @kasa_balavu mentioned, they are probably a lot less out in the open. Most people I know in the US have no problem openly discussing problems with mental illness, although there still is some stigma, it is not as bad as in the past.

A lot of people with alcohol problems use it to self-medicate anxiety and depression. Certainly that happens in Fiji just like everywhere else.

My wife is an American with Chinese parents. According to her, there is much more stigma about mental illness in her parent's culture, to the point where it's existence is often denied. Her parents attitudes reflect the traditional attitudes in China. I don't know if it is any better in the modern day.

 

[Kava Time]

I think we do, but we keep it to ourselves. Mental illnesses carry a very heavy stigma here, and add to that the "be a man and deal with it" mentality, it's an ignored issue.
That said, I don't imagine it would be as bad as it is in the rat race of the developed world.

I never thought of it that way. But i wouldnt be surprised though if most people wouldnt even know that they are sufferring from anxiety and that it can actually be treated with medication.

 

[Kava Time]

Use it for anxiety myself, it'd really that or an SSRI or a benzo. I don't want to do am ssri because I don't want the side effects and the lingering after effects when you wean off. I have taken Xanax a few times and it is amazing for panic attacks, too amazing really. I would always get very euphoric when I took them and that worried me because I didn't want to become addicted. I know people that are and they literally cannot get off off of it. Cost isn't really the big issue since there sre generic forms I just feel the risk isnt worth the reward.
Kava is a bit expensive depending on how much you use, but the amount I use for anxiety and for recreational are very different. Also since switching to micro for anxiety the cost has gone way down since I feel micro is stronger and you need less to get what you need. I just stick half a teaspoon ground under my tongue and let it absorb it's fast and it knocks anxiety out. Medium grind I'd for recreational now which id maybe a day or two a week if that.
Kava doesn't work as well as traditional medicine and might cost more, but the side effects and dependency aren't worth it to me at least. Kava doesn't bother me, I got a bad bit of dermo on my leg when I first started taking it then it just sent away and nothing since. Also I find the problem with meds, or vendors at least is they take away anxiety completely and I don't thinknits healthy to be totally immune to anxiety. Kava will take my anxiety from a 8-10 and bring it to a 3 or lower depending which id manageable and helps me work through it without being wasted. All in all kava for me thanks.

Warning may be a lot of typos on a cell, auto correct hates me.

Have you heard of cases where excessive consumption of xanax has led to huge problems aside from it being addictive?

 

[sɥɐʞɐs]

Have you heard of cases where excessive consumption of xanax has led to huge problems aside from it being addictive?

Huge doses of Xanax turns people into sloppy, careless, completely uninhibited zombie weirdos with no memory. They might find themselves spending the day after, apologizing for odd behaviors and unfiltered comments, paying for broken things...or worse.

 

[kavadude]

Have you heard of cases where excessive consumption of xanax has led to huge problems aside from it being addictive?

Well the problem is that benzodiazepines (and alcohol) will actually increase anxiety over time, so the person ends up on this kind of treadmill where they are ultimately worse off than when they started.

Benzodiazepine withdrawal is also the most severe withdrawal possible -- anyone on a significant dose has to either taper off of it slowly (and deal with increased anxiety, feeling like shit, etc) or go to a facility for a medical detox where they will monitor you for seizures and stuff.

 

[kastom_lif]

I think we do, but we keep it to ourselves.

 

[nickbroken]

Have you heard of cases where excessive consumption of xanax has led to huge problems aside from it being addictive?

Well it can make you dopey as hell like drinking a lot of booze but nothing major. From what I understand Xanax is very hard to overdose in which was part of why it was so popular. If you took too much you would most likely just pass out.

 

[verticity]

Well it can make you dopey as hell like drinking a lot of booze but nothing major. From what I understand Xanax is very hard to overdose in which was part of why it was so popular. If you took too much you would most likely just pass out.

Yes, benzos were at first touted as a safe alternatives to barbiturates, because it is very hard to kill yourself with them, unlike barbiturates. And that is true. But the effects of chronic addiction to them are the real problem.

 

[verticity]

Huge doses of Xanax turns people into sloppy, careless, completely uninhibited zombie weirdos with no memory. They might find themselves spending the day after, apologizing for odd behaviors and unfiltered comments, paying for broken things...or worse.

That's a perfect description. I just cringe when I think back on my behavior when I was on Klonopin. In the case of Klonopin, though, there is no "day after" because it basically stays in your system 24/7. There is the "year after"

 

[Kava Time]

Wow this is some very scary insight into the medications taken for anxiety and their side effects. i hope this trend doesnt come into the pacific and people just supress their emotions because of stigma. Already alcohol here leads to some very bad decisions being made by people i can only imagine what these medications would do especially since it would be promoted for the benefit of people. The consumption of kava here has evolved from it being of medicinal use to becoming more of a social beverage. In fact i think most people would be surprised to hear that westerners are also consuming it and that too because it has peer reviewed medicinal properties. i feel that these types of stories need to be spread out more so that people can know the benefits of drinking kava and how it can be a better alternative to such medications. Alot of publications seem to focus more on the negative side of kava and not actually show how it is benefiting people with anxiety. we need the media to be reaching out to people who consume kava and publish their sucess stories like whats being discussed here

 

[Kava Time]

In fact now i feel compelled to put up a page on my website to share these stories with visitors. if you are keen to share just message me a small paragraph of how kava has helped you as an alternative to medications. I wont put anything against a specific named medication but just its general use. Also let me know your the state you live in and first name if okay with sharing.