New Member / Kava Newbie

[Alien]

Hello, all. I have been lurking the kava forums here as well as visiting the previous kava forums on another site to learn as much as possible. I'm pretty much a kava newbie. I have previous experience in years past with kava paste, liquid extract capsules and ground root capsules. Back when I had tried those a long time ago I never felt like I had gotten anything out of them. Recently my curiosity has led me to research it once again and I am pleasantly surprised to hear that getting fresh ground root and preparing my own drinks, which I have not previously done, is most effective. As such, I have purchased the following:

Paradise Kava Extract 60g x 2
http://www.paradisekava.com/Kava-Extracts-2013-/Coconut-Vanilla-Kava-p44.html

Nakamal At Home Solomon Islands 250g
https://www.nakamalathome.com/buy_k...-250-g-or-0.55-lbs.-FREE-SHIPPING-IN-USA.html

Nakamal At Home Wow 250g
https://www.nakamalathome.com/buy_kava/WOW-Kava-250-g-or-0.55-lbs-FREE-SHIPPING-IN-USA.html

I am also waiting for BKH to get some more Melo Melo and Boroguru back in stock which I understand will be sometime this week!

I am extremely excited though I know it is quite possible my first experiments may produce little to no effects and, if so, it may take a couple tries to see the true potential. If I receive my extract first I will try that out but if I get my NAH order first I will definitely be digging into the Solomon Islands to start out with as I am well aware their "Wow" kava is more potent and for more experienced users. I went ahead and bought the "Wow" anyhow because I am fairly confident I will want to try it out once I have a lot of experience with the Solomon Islands. From my understanding, most kava users really enjoy trying new kava.

I selected my kava purchases based on all of the information (and polls) to find what would both be a good starter kava for me as well as a kava with the attributes & effects I'm looking for. I believe the Solomon Islands and future purchase of Boroguru and Melo Melo to really fit those bills but I'm very open to other suggestions. The benefits/effects I'm looking for are mood enhancement/euphoria and anti-anxiety. Muscle relaxation would be semi-important but sedation to the point of falling asleep is not something I am interested in.

Besides feedback on my first kava purchases, I also have a couple of questions that I still can't seem to wrap my head around.

1. Why is there still debate over whether it helps or hurts to prepare kava with cold/warm/hot water and the potential breakdown of kavalactones? What's the closest thing we have to an official verdict or is it all opinion and if so what's yours? I'm surprised there's no definitive answers on this to be honest.

2. Is it truly beneficial or not to use a fat source while preparing your kava? Obviously, from my research, it is not necessary as many prepare and enjoy kava with only water. But there could be some truth to a fat source making it more potent. What's the general consensus on this or your opinion?

3. I have come to the conclusion that most, if not all, extracts cannot possibly be as effective as preparing kava using ground root. Why is this? There's multiple methods of extraction and some supposedly yield a full spectrum of all the kavalactones. If so, how is it possible they cannot be as effective and why do most users (at least from my research) claim most are trash and the few that are worth using still fall short of the traditional drink? I've never heard of any other psychoactive substance having the same results and I'm well educated in this area.

I realize this is a long post and I apologize for that. I am just both very excited to revisit kava yet also left with so many questions surrounding issues that confuse me. I look forward to any/all replies and also look forward to having further discussions concerning my future experiences.

 

[kavadude]

1) I think hot water is best, and boiling water is probably a marginal improvement in potency but also has a serious impact on texture/taste and preparation time that I don't consider to be worth it. But short exposure to high temperatures certainly won't destroy the kavalactones.

2) Never found it to be useful myself.

3) It's because kava extraction is just not that efficient. Ultimately you're sacrificing a lot of root powder for not as many kavalactones as trad. prep. Extracts and instants can work well, it's just that they aren't as cost effective as the powder. The reason kava extracts are not so effective as extracts of other substances is that we generally avoid simple solvent extracts because they pull a lot of undesirable compounds along with them that can potentially cause side effects. Instants are dehydrated water-extracted kava and extracts are *typically* CO2 supercritical extractions which are, as I understand it, very expensive.

 

[infraredz]

1. There isn't really any debate about water temp (more discussion) but I think it might have been stimulating because of this article I found. Here is an excerpt from a post after there was some discussion a few months back. The definitive answer is most definitely that the hotter the water, the worse the taste will be. That much is very clear. It's also clear rom the study as well as from anecdotes here that hot water does result in a more potent, but more pungent kava.

2. I think most will agree emulsifiers aren't going to significantly increase potency. My opinion is that it has little to no discernible impact.

3. I've personally found that extracts rarely work well (PK's CO2 being the best IMO), but they usually are far too costly to be a good use of my money. Regarding seeming aversion in the kava community to extracts, it's due to the fact that most (other than the supercritical CO2 extractions) are done with strong, non-polar solvents in order to increase the yield. A consequence of this is an extraction of undesirable (potentially toxic) constituents of the plant.

 

[HeadHodge]

Welcome!! Hope you find this forum as awesome as I do. I think you'll find it very informative and everyone here is very friendly and extremely supportive. I was like you, I lurked on the old Yuku site for probably well over a year. When I decided to get more serious about Kava, I decided to make the big leap and joined the forum and posted my first post on the Yuku forum. If it wasn't for @Kapmcrunk I would probably have never found that the forum had moved to here. How embarrassing!!

I'm a Newbie too, but am trying really hard to get up to speed and hopefully will someday be able to self-proclaim myself experienced. So take that into account when reading my replies to posts.

I used the same extract as you (plus Instants) before using any fresh root. I used the extract (and Instant) solely at first to get used to the effects of Kava and it also got me through my RT (reverse tolerance to Kava). Then when I finally started using root powder it gave me a real life experience appreciation of the root compared to the extract. I really liked the extract, but after using the root powder, I can now say that the extract works ok but there is something lost in translation. I think Instant comes closer to emulating the effects of root powder than do the extracts.

1. Why is there still debate over whether it helps or hurts to prepare kava with cold/warm/hot water and the potential breakdown of kavalactones?

My understanding is that there is an old wife's tale that dictates that you should never heat Kava because it ruins the Kavalactones (and effects). But that has been debunked by many people here who use heat all the time (many posts here about it) to enhance the potency of their Kava prep. I've read some articles on hot processes for extracting (distilling) oils from plants and it's my belief that what you really need to be careful of is over boiling Kava in liquid because it would probably cause the Kava oils to "boil off" from the steam into the air. Then it's bye bye Kava tones.

2. Is it truly beneficial or not to use a fat source while preparing your kava? Obviously, from my research, it is not necessary as many prepare and enjoy kava with only water. But there could be some truth to a fat source making it more potent. What's the general consensus on this or your opinion?

I agree with most that it doesn't seem a great benefit to add fat while prepping your Kava. But from personal experience and reported experiences by others here (again lot's of posts about it) there is a fair to significant benefit to eating something fatty after you drink your grog. I believe this is because the Kava oils you consume are not water soluble but when you consume some fat in your stomach, it somehow combines with the oil to help it get absorbed and digested (metabolised) properly (giving it a bigger kick than otherwise). As an aside, I ingest Flaxseed (for fibre). It's also not water soluble, and the result of eating it is that it travels straight on through to the lower intestine of the stomach. This is a desirable effect for the Flaxseed, but definitely not something you want your Kava oils to do.

Anyways that's my personal opionion, not Scientific fact. You'll have to ask @infraredz for that.

Regards

EDIT: Regarding my comment about "boiling off" the Kavalactones when boiling Kava there is a simple experiment to prove that. Take a pressure cooker and place some water and Kava root into it. Then attach a rubber hose where the pressure valve is located with the other end of the hose sitting in a bowl. Cook the Kava in the pressure cooker as you would cook other stuff you normally cook. When the Kavalactones start to boil off in the pressure cooker they will be forced to pass with the steam out the pressure valve through the hose and condense into the bowl. The result should be distilled Kavalactones and water. The only problem with this, is that no one I know has ever really tried this to prove or disprove. I'm still trying to find a guinea pig!!

 

[Deleted User01]

Welcome Alien. Concerning the debate over temperature, I tried the boiling method and I got a thick muddy grog. I don't like my Kava to be thick and muddy. It may have been a tad stronger but not worth the trouble in my opinion. So I go by the study in Hawaii that says 113 is the ideal temperature. On Sunday, I started with 130 degrees (wasn't watching the temps), I blended once, and then I squeezed for 10 minutes. I was done in record time and the Grog was plenty strong. According to the study, the blending plus squeezing is very effective in extracting the Kavalactones from the plant material. I forgot to use my Soy emulsifier but it didn't seem to matter. One more thing, I don't soak the Kava anymore, that has proven to be an unnecessary step. By the way, that was a batch of Solomons. Very good Kava for the price.

 

[Alien]

Thanks for all of the replies so far. I will likely use warm water but not too hot as I would prefer to not have a worse final product to chug down for little to no additional benefit. I will also go ahead and use a little bit of a fat source (milk) as it wouldn't hurt and if it helps increase the effects even just a little then I suppose it's worth it. If it doesn't help, well, I'm not going to cry over spilled milk.

I look forward to the PK extract and that's interesting you sort of started out the same in your kava journey, HeadHodge. If I get both the PK extract and some of my ground root on the same day I'll probably try the extract first and, if I'm not feeling much soon after, prepare myself a drink. If I get the powder first, however, I will definitely go ahead and give it a try without waiting for my extract to arrive.

I forgot to mention I also have purchased some of the Wakacon Fijian off Amazon. I realize I'm really stocking up on kava, especially for a newbie, but I really do believe I will enjoy it and nothing will go to waste.

How many total sessions would you guys estimate I could get from a single 1/4 kg bag? This isn't a scientific question, of course, and there will be a few different opinions I'd imagine but what about for me, a newbie? I have read about people taking anywhere from 1.5 to 10 teaspoons for their journeys. How many total teaspoons of kava are in a 1/4 kg bag (estimate)?

 

[Deleted User01]

The measurement game is tough. Here are the quantities I used on Sunday morning to make my Kava for the next 10 days or so. 2 cans of coconut water at 17.5oz each. 12 oz of water for total of 47 oz. About 1.75 CUPS of Solomons. I yielded (2.5) 16 oz bottles of strong Kava. You might consider bottling Kava if you have limited time on a daily basis. It gets real cold (like beer) in the fridge and is easy to drink. Just make sure you shake it real good when you pour a shell because the goodies settle at the bottom. Also, the crud settles to the bottom so you can choose to drink it or not drink it.

 

[Alien]

The measurement game is tough. Here are the quantities I used on Sunday morning to make my Kava for the next 10 days or so. 2 cans of coconut water at 17.5oz each. 12 oz of water for total of 47 oz. About 1.75 CUPS of Solomons. I yielded (2.5) 16 oz bottles of strong Kava. You might consider bottling Kava if you have limited time on a daily basis. It gets real cold (like beer) in the fridge and is easy to drink. Just make sure you shake it real good when you pour a shell because the goodies settle at the bottom. Also, the crud settles to the bottom so you can choose to drink it or not drink it.

I appreciate the reply. I'd probably pass on the crud unless I felt I had to ingest it. Don't think that'll happen, though.

Still trying to get an idea of how many total experiences you would say you personally get from something like a 1/4 kg bag. Even a range of how many experiences. I was having a hard time trying to ballpark it myself but who better to ask then the people who actually consume it? I don't recall what math or formula I was using the other day but I kept coming up with figures as low as 10 sessions/experiences (for a single person) per 1/4 kg bag. Is that about right or way too low? Again, I know it'll vary from person to person and one type of kava to another, but some ballpark figures would be great.

 

[violet]

I use 5-6 heaping tablespoons, comes out around 50-55 grams. I can usually get 5 sessions out of a 1/4 kilo bag. You may find that what works for you could be more or less. I always add a little cream or half-n-half to my root before squeezing, I can't say that it helps with extraction, but it does smooth out the flavor a bit.

 

[Deleted User01]

The measurement game is tough but here it goes. One time I measured out about 6 cups of Kava to 1.1 pound. Using my method of making Kava, you could take 3 cups of Kava and yield about 64 oz of grog (1.5 cup per 32 oz=2bottles so a total of 4 bottles). I would say half a bottle of good Kava is plenty for me. So I can get 8 sessions from .5 pound of Solomons (which you said you purchased). So 8 sessions for 19 bucks let's say. So that's about 2.40 a session (for budgeting purposes). But I drink it 3/4 times a week, not everyday. So I get 8 sessions from .5 pounds and Violet gets 10 sessions. So there's a pretty good ball park assuming I did the math correctly. Now you gotta understand that I don't drink Kava to get wasted so your mileage may vary.

 

[Alien]

I use 5-6 heaping tablespoons, comes out around 50-55 grams. I can usually get 5 sessions out of a 1/4 kilo bag. You may find that what works for you could be more or less. I always add a little cream or half-n-half to my root before squeezing, I can't say that it helps with extraction, but it does smooth out the flavor a bit.

Thanks-- That's the type of information I was looking for. Five sessions at 50-55 grams per experience, seems to be quite expensive. I'm not poor by any means but I'm far from rich as well. I suppose if I put it into perspective by comparing it to a cup of coffee at Starbucks though it's quite cheap.

The measurement game is tough but here it goes. One time I measured out about 6 cups of Kava to 1.1 pound. Using my method of making Kava, you could take 3 cups of Kava and yield about 64 oz of grog (1.5 cup per 32 oz=2bottles so a total of 4 bottles). I would say half a bottle of good Kava is plenty for me. So I can get 8 sessions from .5 pound of Solomons (which you said you purchased). So 8 sessions for 19 bucks let's say. So that's about 2.40 a session (for budgeting purposes). But I drink it 3/4 times a week, not everyday. So I get 8 sessions from .5 pounds and Violet gets 10 sessions. So there's a pretty good ball park assuming I did the math correctly. Now you gotta understand that I don't drink Kava to get wasted so your mileage may vary.

Awesome. This is exactly what I was looking for. That's pretty close to what I was figuring. The reason I was trying to figure this out in the first place was to figure how expensive it would be to consume kava on a regular basis. Something around $2-2.50 (obviously a very rough ballpark, unscientific and will vary from person to person) per experience. I'm a numbers guy so I like to figure out that sort of thing.

 

[Deleted User01]

Yeah, I'm a numbers guy too. I pestered the fool otta Infraredz a while back trying to get measurements. Then I finally got out my cup and measured a bag of Kava. Everyone here measures in tablespoons but I do cups because I make mass quantities for the week. And yeah, that's cheaper than a cup of starbucks but that's why I grind my own beans. And I ain't cheap either but I pay attention when guys tell me they are getting good Kava for 27.00 a bag. My Kava antennae go on alert. My Kava-Dar starts pinging. Ok, I'm getting goofy now and I only had a teaspoon of instant to relieve the Monday Morning Edge. I'm on the computer all day and this forum gives me little breaks during the day.

P.S. Kava gets very cost effective if you buy it by the pound, not the quarter pound. But I know you are experimenting with all the lovely varieties. Hell, what can you buy for 2.50 anymore? Also, Head Hodge has a point with the dermo thing. That is one of the main reasons that I refrain from drinking it everyday. There is no perfect drug on this earth so moderation in everything.

 

[HeadHodge]

I forgot to mention I also have purchased some of the Wakacon Fijian off Amazon. I realize I'm really stocking up on kava, especially for a newbie, but I really do believe I will enjoy it and nothing will go to waste.

Warning if you go hog wild experimenting with all your new Kava (like I did), you may end up (like I did) with a bad case of Derma Ick (dermopathy). Don't say I didn't say.

 

[Alien]

Yeah, I'm a numbers guy too. I pestered the fool otta Infraredz a while back trying to get measurements. Then I finally got out my cup and measured a bag of Kava. Everyone here measures in tablespoons but I do cups because I make mass quantities for the week. And yeah, that's cheaper than a cup of starbucks but that's why I grind my own beans. And I ain't cheap either but I pay attention when guys tell me they are getting good Kava for 27.00 a bag. My Kava antennae go on alert. My Kava-Dar starts pinging. Ok, I'm getting goofy now and I only had a teaspoon of instant to relieve the Monday Morning Edge. I'm on the computer all day and this forum gives me little breaks during the day.

P.S. Kava gets very cost effective if you buy it by the pound, not the quarter pound. But I know you are experimenting with all the lovely varieties. Hell, what can you buy for 2.50 anymore? Also, Head Hodge has a point with the dermo thing. That is one of the main reasons that I refrain from drinking it everyday. There is no perfect drug on this earth so moderation in everything.

I hear you on grinding your own coffee beans. I'm not a coffee drinker but every once in awhile I'll have a frozen or chilled coffee drink but it's quite rare. I definitely wouldn't spend money on a cup of coffee on a regular basis from Starbucks either.

I don't think I'll be making big batches or at least not at first. Although prep time can vary, I'm thinking ~15 minutes to prepare just enough needed for what I need to not be too bad.

HeadHodge-- Thanks for the tip. I haven't considered my plans to be too crazy. I was thinking just once a day for the most part, maybe twice a day while I experiment for a week. Do you think that's excessive enough to experience the skin reactions? Also, I thought if you are able to strain as close to perfect as possible then it's much less likely to develop?

 

[HeadHodge]

HeadHodge-- Thanks for the tip. I haven't considered my plans to be too crazy. I was thinking just once a day for the most part, maybe twice a day while I experiment for a week. Do you think that's excessive enough to experience the skin reactions? Also, I thought if you are able to strain as close to perfect as possible then it's much less likely to develop?

I was doing 4 tablespoons (2 more would make it a whole cup) with 4 cups of water per day. That was enough to do it for me (Derma Ick). I do think however, that I was using too coarse of a strainer, so I can't prove it yet, but I think that was a big factor for me.

 

[Deleted User01]

So that's .66 of a cup with 32 oz of water? I mix about 1.5-1.75 for 64+ oz of water. That's pretty close. Ya see Alien, we are getting somewhat consistent numbers. Except the amount of Kava that Headhodge was mixing would be at least 3+ sessions for me. So keep that in mind. Moderation is the key. I feel that after X oz of Kava, I reach a point of diminishing return and there is no need to proceed unless you like to tickle your liver or put on a new alligator skin suit.

One more disclaimer, I am a Kava liteweight which means that it doesn't take much to effect me. Perhaps that is a blessing in disguise.

This posting is being edited for "breaking news". The guys at N@H just replied to my inquiries about Chiefs Jungle. They hope to have some by the end of May. Hope I'm still alive by then. Just kidding Jeffrey, just kidding.

 

[Alien]

I was doing 4 tablespoons (2 more would make it a whole cup) with 4 cups of water per day. That was enough to do it for me (Derma Ick). I do think however, that I was using too coarse of a strainer, so I can't prove it yet, but I think that was a big factor for me.

I got a 'delicates' laundry bag made by Tide that has super fine holes. I will be trying that out until I get something made just for kava. I don't want to try the t-shirt method for fear of losing quality. I also don't think pantyhose would work very well for very long but obviously I have no experience.

 

[Alien]

So that's .66 of a cup with 32 oz of water? I mix about 1.5-1.75 for 64+ oz of water. That's pretty close. Ya see Alien, we are getting somewhat consistent numbers. Except the amount of Kava that Headhodge was mixing would be at least 3+ sessions for me. So keep that in mind. Moderation is the key. I feel that after X oz of Kava, I reach a point of diminishing return and there is no need to proceed unless you like to tickle your liver or put on a new alligator skin suit.

One more disclaimer, I am a Kava liteweight which means that it doesn't take much to effect me. Perhaps that is a blessing in disguise.

I agree. I will be interested to see what amount will be my sweet spot.

 

[HeadHodge]

I got a 'delicates' laundry bag made by Tide that has super fine holes.

Hope you meant "super fine mesh" and not "holes"!!

 

[Deleted User01]

Alien, if you have a Home Brew (beer) store in your town, then check out the extra fine nylon bags that we use for soaking the grain. Grain/Kava what's the difference?