Perplexed by Tudei Controversy

[Delicate Drunk]

I don’t understand what all this tudei controversy is about. I have been drinking kava for 20 years, from dozens of different sources, and never really noticed any kava that seemed particularly nasty. Even back in the day when kava was huge and tudei was supposedly ending up a lot in extracts and pills, I would often consume huge quantities of various pills or extracts, and I never recall feeling any particularly bad effects. And I never once barfed, although at times I became nauseous.

Surely after consuming all this kava from all these random sources I should have consumed tudei at least a couple of times and then noticed the particularly bad effects. Invariably if I had a hangover or started to feel sick it was because I had ingested a vary large quantity, and this still happens for me today, even if it’s the super noble varieties from the certified vendors.

 

[blindy107]

Not everyone reacts the same way apparently. There seems to be a compound in tudei that isn't present in noble which is suspected to be the issue for some.

 

[kasa_balavu]

Great anecdote, @Delicate Drunk. I know a guy who needs at least four bottles of beer before he even feels the slightest buzz.

That's the funny thing about the human body. Each one is different and reacts differently.

The people of the Pacific Islands who've consumed kava for centuries don't drink Tudei. The worlds foremost kava scientist has very strongly recommended against the consumption of Tudei kava on health and safety grounds. There are numerous anecdotes of Tudei kava causing severe nausea, headaches, and lethargy for up to two days after consumption. The greatest kava producing country in the world has a ban on the export of Tudei kava.

Given all that information, make up your own mind about Tudei kava

 

[Delicate Drunk]

Just giving my personal experience. I know everyone reacts differently. Take my anecdote for what it’s worth, but the science on kava, and particularly what constitutes tudei kava, seems to be in it’s infancy. For example, what are the particular chemicals that differentiate tudei kava from noble, and how does the acetonic test indicate the presence of them?

 

[Kava Steve]

Just giving my personal experience. I know everyone reacts differently. Take my anecdote for what it’s worth, but the science on kava, and particularly what constitutes tudei kava, seems to be in it’s infancy. For example, what are the particular chemicals that differentiate tudei kava from noble, and how does the acetonic test indicate the presence of them?

http://kavaforums.com/forum/threads/current-status-of-the-qualitative-acetone-test.5860/

 

[August West]

From my known experiences with tudei, the sessions feel more medicinal, and less recreational. Nausea seems to set in faster possibly due to higher levels of dhk/dhm? I simply prefer nobility and I thank Deleted User and vendors that strive to grow/find noble root, or at least be honest in the labeling if it may be tudei.

Every time I drank tudei, I didn't like it...therefore I never bought it again. I'm less concerned with the dangers of borderline tudei or spiked tudei. If it's enjoyable and I don't drag ass the next day, I'm okay with drinking it. BUT knowing that it is spiked would keep me from drinking it daily or reordering multiple times. I'm guessing though, if it's beyond a borderline and is quite spiked, I'll know right away. If it's a borderline tudei, I'll know after a few days. I just wish all vendors labeled them as such, if they were borderline.

 

[Delicate Drunk]

Thanks for the link Kava Steve. I have read that thread before, and it still only offers theories, and the inconclusive results of one scientist.

 

[Kava Steve]

Just giving my personal experience. I know everyone reacts differently. Take my anecdote for what it’s worth, but the science on kava, and particularly what constitutes tudei kava, seems to be in it’s infancy. For example, what are the particular chemicals that differentiate tudei kava from noble, and how does the acetonic test indicate the presence of them?

then you would notice the link to the first post answered your question

"I think that what it is safe to say is that the coloration corresponds to high FK content plus other non-identified pigments, and noble varieties have low FK content.
So yes, for example, everything with a color similar to Isa or Palisi is potentially dangerous."
Dr. Lebot

 

[TheKavaSociety]

I would also add that not all tudei has to be "strong" or have a very high kl %. If a vendor/supplier is dodgy enough to knowingly spike his kava with tudei, he/she can easily be dodgy enough to use immature (i.e. weak) plants and the aerial parts which have much less kl. Few people can handle pure, strong tudei, that's why it's mainly used to "spice up" weaker batches of noble kava. So in general, the reason why some tudeis might feel "OK" could be that these are immature plants mixed with stems etc. In any case, most people find even such "weak" tudeis to be repulsive.
I've never had "pure" tudei, but I've had some kava that was heavily spiked with tudei. It was absolutely vile and made me physically sick. At the same time, I know that one other person on this forum thought that mix was "not the best, but drinkable". So, we are all different. The point is though, that there are MANY very, very strong noble kavas that are far less likely to make you sick than even some of these weak tudeis. When I was in Port Vila I met a few "hardcore" kava drinkers. Those guys LOVED strong kava and could drink more kava than half of this forum combined. And yet they all told me they would never touch tudei. Some said that they might drink it if there was absolutely no other kava available (and then they would use way less kava in order not to get sick), but most said they would rather drink vodka than tudei.

 

[HeadHodge]

I don't worry whether my kava is tudei or noble, I just use what gives me the effects I desire.

It's sorta funny or ironic, but (except for a few exceptions) I normally end up drinking Noble kava's.

I guess I have a built in kavaometer.

 

[Gourmet Hawaiian Kava]

Thanks for the link Kava Steve. I have read that thread before, and it still only offers theories, and the inconclusive results of one scientist.

Hi @Delicate Drunk, I think you are wrong in this statement, this is not a theory and there is more than one scientist that adheres to this test and uses it, I can think of 4 right of the batt and that these scientists were at the 2015 International Kava Conference. I admit it is not a very old test, it is only about 8 years old but it works, it gives us a tool to see the range of adulteration in kava. It is easy to see on the low end is 100% pure Noble kava, like Hawaiian Nene and the farther you go up it starts to get into the tudei kava, so this is simply a reliable test for the consumers to use so they can decide if the kava they have is where they want the spectrum to be. Some people do not care as much as others and some people speculate that there is no harm in kava that is tudei or has tudei mixed with noble kava. The point is that it is a tool to allow the consumer who wants a good noble kava and wants to stay away from the tudei, this test allows them to see if there kava is closer to noble kava or closer to tudei kava. On the other side of the coin it also lets the consumer that wants tudei to see what kava might have higher amounts of tudei, if that is what they want. I just wanted to let you know that it is not just a theory and it is supported by more than one scientist. I hope this helps in your understanding of this test. Aloha from the Hilo side.

Chris

 

[Edward]

I can't pretend to know much about kava cultivation but from my own point of view and what is important to me if someone sells me something and says it is noble kava of a certain type, nene for arguments sake, I want that to be 100% nene. If I was in the tomato business I wouldn't send you 100 kilos of "tomato" with 10% aubergine mixed in. The unscrupulous vendors know what they are doing and the vendors who don't care should really start to. Any test that can start to differentiate between "good" and "bad" kavas should be welcomed. I've never knowingly ingested tudei kava but from what I hear I don't want to but it all comes back to that statement... don't sell me something as noble if you really have no idea what it is.

 

[HeadHodge]

Hi @Delicate Drunk, I think you are wrong in this statement, this is not a theory and there is more than one scientist that adheres to this test and uses it, I can think of 4 right of the batt and that these scientists were at the 2015 International Kava Conference.......

Who are the other scientists? (just curious).

 

[Naturemankava]

then you would notice the link to the first post answered your question

"I think that what it is safe to say is that the coloration corresponds to high FK content plus other non-identified pigments, and noble varieties have low FK content.
So yes, for example, everything with a color similar to Isa or Palisi is potentially dangerous."
Dr. Lebot

Don't we want more FK's based on the new findings that they kill cancer?

Can someone recomend a good FK tested kava... I want to do some cancer killing!

Die Cancer Die!

 

[sɥɐʞɐs]

Don't we want more FK's based on the new findings that they kill cancer?

Can someone recomend a good FK tested kava... I want to do some cancer killing!

Die Cancer Die!

You're in luck, safer levels of FK's exist in noble kavas.

 

[TheKavaSociety]

Don't we want more FK's based on the new findings that they kill cancer?

Can someone recomend a good FK tested kava... I want to do some cancer killing!

Die Cancer Die!

Fire and nuclear bombs also kill cancer.

 

[kavadude]

Don't we want more FK's based on the new findings that they kill cancer?

Can someone recomend a good FK tested kava... I want to do some cancer killing!

Die Cancer Die!

Lots of things kill cancer, it doesn't necessarily mean you want them in your body.

Besides that, in vivo studies done with kava extracts that do not contain flavokawains are quite promising:

http://www.health.umn.edu/news-rele...ava-plant-may-prevent-cigarette-smoke-induced

 

[Edward]

Fire and nuclear bombs also kill cancer.

Light a man a fire, keep him warm for a night. Set a man on fire, keep him warm for a lifetime.

 

[Naturemankava]

You're in luck, safer levels of FK's exist in noble kavas.

Safer levels or none? I was reading that noble had none. What is a safe or dangerous level? Can you point me towards one that has a safe tested level.