Shoud I deliberately give kava a good thrashing before getting my first liver tests?

[Geiourht]

I hate seeing the doctor so want to take as few trips as i have to.

I havent taken kava for a week or more now but I wounder if i should get some more and hit it for a few days before getting the tests because then if i got all clear it would mean the kava wasnt bothering me much. Ofc if the enzymes were up then id need more tests with and without kava, but taking kava before might save me a trip whereas if i took no kava then it kind of defeats the point of getting liver tests doesnt it?

I am toying with the idea of telling them i take kava. It is banned in the uk for human consumptions but maybe its better to tell them if i say im using it therapeutically and its been helpful to me maybe they wont be so judgemental? they will probably try and push me onto antidepressants which seems to be their answer to everything :/. Id prefer be upfront with them and say it was for kava use than lie and say its for alcohol which i dont touch and hate witha passion.

Trying to figure the best way to go about it. I guess to be properly scientific i need a few tests over a period of time and kava use.

 

[Deleted User01]

@Geiourht, just do your normal dose the night before. You want to know what your blood looks like like under normal circumstance. I know people who will NOT drink alcohol or eat fatty foods a few days before their tests. This is not realistic and you are only fooling yourself. Just do your normal routine and you can see what your blood looks like under everyday normal conditions. And please post the liver results here. I normally do my blood tests about twice a year but I have insurance and I'm a little older. As you get older, you get paranoid about what might be sneaking up on you.

 

[Geiourht]

That was mainly my point tho, I only just started using it again so don't have a regular dose.

The Nene was no good for me so need to look to other strains to see if they will get on with me better.

I was watching a documentary the other day about drinking culture where young professionals were given free liver tests and over half had raised liver enzymes with people getting liver transplants; one girl only in her late 20s/early 30s. Granted she was an alcoholic but they were saying how liver disease is a 'silent killer' so it put me on further alert.

Thats whats most worrying how your liver could be riddled with rot and you'd never know till it was too late.

 

[sɥɐʞɐs]

I take a different view on this subject, most places actually recommend that you abstain from alcohol for at least 24 before getting tested. Drinking soon before testing can give you false red flags, unless you drink all the time anyway, then they would probably be legitimate. What you want to see is your results while you're not under the direct or residual influence of the metabolic process. Getting tested while you've cleaned up, is a better indicator of if you've caused any 'real' damage, because even the most sober person in the world would show elevated liver enzymes if they had consumed alcohol the night before...they would be temporary, but that wouldn't be apparant on a test.

I'm speaking more on alcohol here, but we know kava is also metabolized by the liver and may be similar in regard to testing. That being said, many people have consumed kava soon before getting tested and posted clean results here. There may have been one person who showed a slight elevation after recent consumption.

Same goes for eating bad, labs that are taking a serious look at your cholesterol levels and triglycerides might also suggest a 'fasting blood-test' because a bad meal too soon before testing can temporarily throw your numbers out of whack, thereby fooling your Dr., and defeating the legitimacy of the results.

If you'd like to avoid using the word Kava with your Dr, you might first say something like "a mildy sedating herbal tea".
Like you said, several tests would be the best bet, if you really wanted to do some kava science. If I had the time and ability to, I think I'd take a test while being a couple weeks clean, then another after drinking my 1st strong batch the night before, another after a month of regular drinking and then one more after quitting for a week or 2.

 

[Geiourht]

Hey I just looked online and you can buy home liver checks. Now ofc they arent going to be as scrupulous as the ones the docs offer but they get rid of the rigmarole of having to go in to see them doesnt it. They are cheap too (£5 uk) so if they are pretty accurate I can conduct home experiments to my hearts content. I would still get some checks down the line to be sure and for exteral verification/corrobative validation but if they work they could be just the tool ive been looking for to allow proper experimenting within the privacy of my own home. I love excercising the scientific method anyhow so it would be fun for me.

Altho I will go to the doctors to do them if I had to Id feel alot more comfortable being able to conduct such experiments in my own time at my leisure.

 

[kavadude]

Basically, building on what @shakas said, we don't know. We don't know if kava might elevate your liver enzymes temporarily and thus whether it would be necessary to abstain before a test.

I would just stick to what you normally do; if they are elevated after that, then you would abstain and re-test.

 

[Geiourht]

This is what looks great about the home tests. I can do them when I want in whatever circumstances I like multiple times for accuracy.

It would be awkward going into the doctors asking them every week for tests every time I changed a parameter to test.

I encourage others to get on the home testing bandwagon!

 

[kavadude]

FWIW I don't think you can get AST/ALT without taking blood. These are the values that are indicative of a lot of different liver problems (hepatitis, alcohol-related liver damage) etc.

 

[Steve T]

I also dislike blood tests and was apprehensive about getting multiple LFTs done. My first test was elevated from kava, and they had me take a second test after I dropped drinking kava, which turned out fine. It's really just a case of being honest with one's self. I knew that I drank kava every night, I really wanted to continue doing so, but I had no idea how it affected my body. If you drink kava both nights before the test and your liver is fine, then you can be pretty sure that it's safe. Otherwise the test doesn't really have a purpose.

It is better to be honest with them. When I told my doctors about kava they had no idea what it was. The only one that cared was my psychiatrist because she considered it self-medicating. They won't have any valuable insight on kava research, they'll just have a better idea of what's going on in your body. Despite what some people may say on here, kava can be dangerous, it was for me, and I have data that proves it.

 

[Geiourht]

Every night at what sort of doses?

Isnt it like drinking alcohol every night? that too would get you in trouble.

I recall the new caledonia natives case being that they consumed 118grams a week and that caused reversible damage so that at least is a solid figure to work backwards from.

 

[sɥɐʞɐs]

One test doesn't prove anything, I believe Steve is the only person out of the many members who have posted their results, to show any elevation.
I'm not saying kava wasn't the cause in his case, but there are many other possible factors involved that could have been the reason for his result.
Every other daily drinker here has had clean results, even someone whose liver was ravaged by hepatitis C.

 

[Geiourht]

Also steve I see in one thread you posted you only drank noble but in an older thread I see you drank tudeis? Could you explain this?

 

[Steve T]

Every night at what sort of doses?

I drank 7-8 tbsp of noble kava per night, and had signs the next day such as fatigue, disorientation, irritability, and so forth. I don't want to make you nervous, because as you probably saw my LFT returned to normal after abstaining from kava. So if your LFT is clean then you don't have to worry, and if it's elevated then you can do something about it as well.

I mistakenly drank tudei kava which was labeled "Vanuatu" kava from Amazon. I had to test it to find out it was tudei. That was roughly 6 months before my LFT. I drank only noble kava for those 6 months before the test.

Since I have insomnia, which was part of the reason I drank kava, I also kept a sleep journal where I recorded exactly what I took every night with exactly how much kava and of what type every single night. It also has what I ate and my general experience for that day -- tired, irritable, dizzy, and so forth. Not only do I have extremely good data but yes you can check my posts and I was very active, I prepared kava properly, drank it properly, drank no alcohol whatsoever, and actively tested my kava and posted the results. I only mention that because some people may feel that my real test results threaten their own kava drinking habits, and that therefore apparently my tests aren't a real measure.

In the mean time, I am just keeping it 100% here, and letting you know that getting a LFT is a good idea, and that drinking noble kava the night before the test is also a good idea. How can people say noble kava is safe and doesn't cause liver damage, and then say not to drink it the night before a LFT? Sorry but that is contradictory and totally illogical. Those are the people who aren't concerned with your health but with how your test affects their own kava habits.

 

[Geiourht]

Ye I thought the same re your last paragraph. If kava causes NO toxicity like people say then you should be able to drink any amount before and it wouldnt elevate your enzymes. Like in science a common method when dosing animals is to give them way higher doses than humans to make sure they see a reaction if any.

That is good data though I appreciate it. I measured one teaspoon as 5 grams since I always weigh my doses. So 40 grams per night x 7. You would have been consiming 280 grams a week roughly. Which would put you way over the scale of the new calendonians who took 118 a week and suffered damage. Now their material I think there was problems with the material so Im not saying it proves anything just throwing it out there for further discussion.

 

[Deleted User01]

@shakas, I guess it would be ok to fast from kava for 24 hours. But if my liver is elevated 24 hours after kava, I really want to know. And I say this because my liver has never been elevated even after drinking a bottle of red wine and a big ribey steak the day before my labs. Now did they help my cholesterol, hell no! But the liver was ok.

 

[Bubba Bula]

@Geiourht, just do your normal dose the night before. You want to know what your blood looks like like under normal circumstance. I know people who will NOT drink alcohol or eat fatty foods a few days before their tests. This is not realistic and you are only fooling yourself. Just do your normal routine and you can see what your blood looks like under everyday normal conditions. And please post the liver results here. I normally do my blood tests about twice a year but I have insurance and I'm a little older. As you get older, you get paranoid about what might be sneaking up on you.

I agree with this. You'll probably do fine on the tests, but if kava is a problem then wouldn't you want to know? Also, I would NOT volunteer that you consume anything that is banned. All that would likely do is get you put on some list or catagory in some government database that you really don't want to be on.

 

[SelfBiasResistor]

Basically, building on what @shakas said, we don't know. We don't know if kava might elevate your liver enzymes temporarily and thus whether it would be necessary to abstain before a test.

I would just stick to what you normally do; if they are elevated after that, then you would abstain and re-test.

I agree, do as you normally would. That way if there is not a problem, you can be pretty certain you're doing good with it. If there is a problem, cut out everything that can effect it and then retest and if good, start adding back until you see the problem come up again. Basic troubleshooting.

Ye I thought the same re your last paragraph. If kava causes NO toxicity like people say then you should be able to drink any amount before and it wouldnt elevate your enzymes.

Not exactly. Vitamin B3 is critical for life and ingesting it can elevate liver enzymes as it's metabolized by the liver. Taking large amounts before a liver test will often show elevated enzymes. It doesn't mean you should not try to ingest that vitamin.

Also, I think some people here are making too big of a deal of the liver function tests. They do not necessarily prove or disprove anything. They are just a snapshot of bodily function at that moment in time. Last summer I had my liver tested and the results came out very good. I was a bit surprised as I was a causal kava drinker, drinking it a few times a week. I was taking opiod pain killers laced with hepa-toxic acetaminophen and I was a heavy alcohol drinker (10-16 drinks a day for almost the last ten years). Some days, I used all 3 substances in the same day. Do my good results mean I should continue this? Of course not, it just means that my liver was doing fine at the time even under severe abuse (alcohol and tylenol, wont place kava in that group since there is no conclusive proof that it causes similar damage as the other 2). The night before the test, I cut my alcohol intake down by maybe half or so as there was no way I could go a day/night without any at that time.

For what it's worth, AST and ALT were both 23...

 

[Geiourht]

I wouldnt agree with what you're saying they dont prove or disprove anything.

Sure they dont prove it 100% but taking those tests Im sure gives you more information than never taking the test.

Just cos your exceptional abuse didnt show any signs of damage on the test doesnt disprove their efficacy as you are implying.

Just like people who smaoke a 20 pack a day all their lives and get the all clear from doctors doesnt prove smoking is healthy.

aka the exception doesnt prove the rule.