Kava Culture The Kava Flow - K@ Follow-Up & Recent Kava Controversies

[TheKavaFlow]

Hello all!

Check out the latest episode of the KavaFlow, outlining a bit about what's been going on lately:
Podcast: http://www.kavaflow.net/e/K@-recent-kava-controversies/
YouTube:
This weekend I'll have a super sweet video outlining some tips and tricks to prepare kava, and I've also got some really, really neat interviews lined up in the next coming weeks that I'm sure will interest anyone in the community. Stay tuned!

-Morgan

 

[Odourman]

I just watched your two latest videos and subscribed. Very good videos!

I do not want kava to be associated with K@!

It really endangers kava here in Sweden. Here people have died from mixing K@ with other internet drugs. That's made internet drugs illegal and they are watching the customs and forums closely. It's front page stuff. Kids are bored dumb and do whatever to get high. It's hard to buy lighter fluid here because kids use it to get high.
Everything is on prescription. They do not sell alcohol in stores. Alcohol is exspensive and can bought at special stores that only sell alcohol. This makes people do their own booze.

Anyway... its a miracle that kava is legal to import (but not to sell). Nothing else is!
K@ is famous in Sweden, but not kava. When I hear somebody talk about kava or when I read about it, it's together with K@.


Also regarding the conspiracy. As a newbie in the forums I have been confused and a bit sad. This is the second bad mouthing/discrediting I have noticed since I joined the forums (The other wasn't caused at the forums, but I read about it there).
I believe newcomers will be scared and that's not good for kava.

And I see you play the ukulele! Me too! It really makes you relaxed and happy.

 

[Edward]

Drama we don't need... hey haven't we had that before involving a certain member?

At the end of the day GHK sell really good kava so I'm going to keep buying it and I don't really care about how it's marketed or how it came to be perceived as the best kava. There are plenty of kavas I like just as much so I'll continue to buy those too.

It's sad that we have such a close knit community of people who for the most part are here to support each other and discuss a common love for the root but yet occasionally we have to have these invented problems. Let's hope we're near the end of this period.

 

[Odourman]

I hope that I don't offend anyone when writing this, but people in the states need to set a good example if kava and kava bars is going to spread to Europe.
Sweden really looks up to the USA.

 

[Rick.Sanchez]

I don't think I misunderstood your last video when you said you think it would be lethal to mix up K@ dosages with kava dosages. I think it's great to make that correction, but I definitely wouldn't blame the viewers for misunderstanding when you clearly made some statements that weren't accurate.

Also, it's not illegal to sell or consume K@. It's also not even correct to already say that K@ is illegal to sell for human consumption. Currently, we dont have any official interpretation from the FDA or the judiciary, so you could correctly say that K@ is not a dietary supplement and that it would be illegal to sell if it's marketed that way, but it's still not necessarily illegal to sell for human consumption. This ties back into a previous KF discussion about the gigantic mess of FDA statutes that are more relevant to how products are being marketed than the actual products themselves. In fact, some vendors do sell it for human consumption by marketing and selling it as a tea, in which case they think it can legally be sold as a beverage or food item. However, most places place the "not for human consumption" label as an extra layer of legal protection. The correct statement: It's illegal to market K@ as a dietary supplement. You could also say that it's legally ambiguous to sell for human consumption. Here's a link to the import alert from the FDA which contains some misinformation itself. Note some of the specific language used, and they also note that there are cases of drugs being sold as K@ products that are, in reality, things like tramadol analogues. https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/cms_ia/importalert_1137.html

One issue I have with the KF official stance on K@ is that it's predicated on the incorrect statement that it's illegal to sell for human consumption. There is legislation in the works (SITSA act) that would give the justice department authority to schedule virtually any substance as they see fit, and if it passes, K@ could be made outright illegal along with kava if they so choose. However, there is currently no explicit law against selling K@ for human consumption.

Another issue is that K@'s biggest problems are many of the same problems that plagued kava in the near past: misinformation and mislabeling of products. Currently, there are products being sold as K@ (namely some extracts and "enhanced" products) that contain other drugs with major safety concerns. There is also a lot of misinformation regarding it's legal status, effects, and mechanism of action. Many outlets are saying K@ is akin to taking cocaine and heroin, calling it "natures speedball". This is absurd. The FDA is only making things worse by not approving K@ to be sold as a dietary ingredient, exacerbating the misinformation problem.

I could go on with my rant, but I think I'll cut myself off. In short, K@ is not explicitly illegal to sell for human consumption, but it is illegal to market as a dietary supplement. I also believe that we should be fighting for accurate education regarding both kava and K@ instead of jumping on the 'K@ is a threat to kava train'. In reality, misinformation is the only legal threat to either plant, and misinformation is the only danger either plant poses to public health

Disclaimer: I'm not a legal expert and this is not legal advice

 

[Odourman]

I don't think I misunderstood your last video when you said you think it would be lethal to mix up K@ dosages with kava dosages. I think it's great to make that correction, but I definitely wouldn't blame the viewers for misunderstanding when you clearly made some statements that weren't accurate.

Also, it's not illegal to sell or consume K@. It's also not even correct to already say that K@ is illegal to sell for human consumption. Currently, we dont have any official interpretation from the FDA or the judiciary, so you could correctly say that K@ is not a dietary supplement and that it would be illegal to sell if it's marketed that way, but it's still not necessarily illegal to sell for human consumption. This ties back into a previous KF discussion about the gigantic mess of FDA statutes that are more relevant to how products are being marketed than the actual products themselves. In fact, some vendors do sell it for human consumption by marketing and selling it as a tea, in which case they think it can legally be sold as a beverage or food item. However, most places place the "not for human consumption" label as an extra layer of legal protection. The correct statement: It's illegal to market K@ as a dietary supplement. You could also say that it's legally ambiguous to sell for human consumption. Here's a link to the import alert from the FDA which contains some misinformation itself. Note some of the specific language used, and they also note that there are cases of drugs being sold as K@ products that are, in reality, things like tramadol analogues. httpsw.accessdata.fda.gov/cms_ia/importalert_1137.html

One issue I have with the KF official stance on K@ is that it's predicated on the incorrect statement that it's illegal to sell for human consumption. There is legislation in the works (SITSA act) that would give the justice department authority to schedule virtually any substance as they see fit, and if it passes, K@ could be made outright illegal along with kava if they so choose. However, there is currently no explicit law against selling K@ for human consumption.

Another issue is that K@'s biggest problems are many of the same problems that plagued kava in the near past: misinformation and mislabeling of products. Currently, there are products being sold as K@ (namely some extracts and "enhanced" products) that contain other drugs with major safety concerns. There is also a lot of misinformation regarding it's legal status, effects, and mechanism of action. Many outlets are saying K@ is akin to taking cocaine and heroin, calling it "natures speedball". This is absurd. The FDA is only making things worse by not approving K@ to be sold as a dietary ingredient, exacerbating the misinformation problem.

I could go on with my rant, but I think I'll cut myself off. In short, K@ is not explicitly illegal to sell for human consumption, but it is illegal to market as a dietary supplement. I also believe that we should be fighting for accurate education regarding both kava and K@ instead of jumping on the 'K@ is a threat to kava train'. In reality, misinformation is the only legal threat to either plant, and misinformation is the only danger either plant poses to public health

I still don't believe that K@ should have a place beside kava or in any way be associated with it.

 

[Chris1052]

I hope that I don't offend anyone when writing this, but people in the states need to set a good example if kava and kava bars is going to spread to Europe.
Sweden really looks up to the USA.

All I can say without getting political is that's hilarious.

 

[Odourman]

All I can say without getting political is that's hilarious.

We adopt all american holidays, many even celibrate thanks givings. Most shows on the tv is from USA, most music, fashion and food. Street food is in now in Stockholm because of NYC.
People follow american celebrities most of all.

I have heard that artists on tour feel like they are coming home to a strange mini USA when they come to Sweden.

Even in politics.

 

[Rick.Sanchez]

In the USA, there are three groups of items that may be legally sold for human consumption: Foods (including "food ingredients"), dietary supplements, and drugs. All are subject to certain regulations. K@ does not qualify under any of these groups.

There hasn't been an official statement or judicial precedence on the sale of K@ for human consumption outside of the FDA's statement and seizures regarding the sale of K@ as a dietary supplement. Like I said, it's very possible that it will be made explicitly illegal to sell for human consumption in any capacity in the near future when the FDA gives us an official stance and could even be made illegal to posses as a schedule A drug, but it's currently shrouded in ambiguity

You could make a case that it's implicitly illegal to sell for human consumption under the current laws, but it is still speculative to do so. I think it's still wise for vendors to avoid selling it for human consumption to avoid any potential legal ramifications, but without reiterating everything I just typed in my previous post, that adds to the problems

 

[SelfBiasResistor]

I still don't believe that K@ should have a place beside kava or in any way be associated with it.

Clearing up misconceptions/disinfo and acknowledging kratoms right to exist is not the same as associating it with kava. The best way to keep all herbs legal is education. Scare tactics are not good for kava in the long run.

 

[Deleted User01]

Good common sense video. Let them sell K@ in K@ bars only. Yes, it helps some people, I acknowledge that and would not deny them that. Just don't put Kava and K@ in the same category. The conspiracy theory deal was on the mark. It's a crazy theory until you provide proof. I just want to add that since TK has been testing, the quality of kava has gone up and there are more small distributors entering the market as well. Squanch is a good example but I have seen lot of other small retailers jump in and that is kind of amazing considering he small size of the market. Well done @Kavaflow.

 

[Rick.Sanchez]

From what I remember the FDA has officially stated that they consider any product containing K@ to be "adultarated". Such products by definition cannot be sold or marketed for human consumption AFAIK.

"The U.S. Department of Justice, on behalf of the FDA, filed a complaint in the U.S. District Court for the Northern District of Illinois alleging, among other things, that K@ is a new dietary ingredient for which there is inadequate information to provide reasonable assurance that it does not present a significant or unreasonable risk of illness or injury; therefore, dietary supplements containing K@ are adulterated under the FD&C Act."
https://www.fda.gov/newsevents/newsroom/pressannouncements/ucm480344.htm

Yes. Like I said in my previous posts, they've clearly said it's illegal to sell K@ as a dietary supplement. It's not yet explicitly illegal to sell K@ in any capacity, including for human consumption.

I just realized that the link to the actual official statement by the FDA didn't work in my initial post, so I've fixed it. With all of the unexpected political backlash against scheduling K@ and new research, the FDA should be revisiting K@ and coming up with a clearer stance on it's safety, legality, etc. Their import alert, as well as the DEA's notice of intent to place an emergency schedule I designation, was partly based on bogus information that's since been proven false.

 

[Rick.Sanchez]

The FDA considers any product containing K@ as "adulterated". Adulterated products cannot be legally sold for the purpose of human consumption in your country. As simple as this.
Obviously, I am not a lawyer, but the above was explained to me by someone who is.

"K@ and K@-containing dietary supplements and bulk dietary ingredients are adulterated under section 402(f)(1)(B) of the Act [21 U.S.C. 342(f)(1)(B)], because they contain a new dietary ingredient for which there is inadequate information to provide reasonable assurance that such ingredient does not present a significant or unreasonable risk of illness or injury".

The meaning of adulterated: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/21/342
Note they talk about foods, not just dietary supplements.

Anyway, the bottom line is that krat is "less legal" than kava and hence kava has nothing to win by getting associated with it.
Peace.

If you read the import alert, they're specifically referring to K@ when it's sold as a dietary supplement or dietary ingredient. I think your missing my point. I'm not trying to say that it's legal to sell K@ for human consumption. I feel like I keep repeating myself. I said that it's not explicitly illegal to sell K@ for human consumption. However, it's fair to interpret the current laws as saying that it's implicitly illegal to sell for human consumption.

 

[Rick.Sanchez]

Three groups of substances may be legally sold for human consumption in the USA:

1. Foods (includes "dietary ingredients")
2. Dietary Supplements
3. Drugs

Foods consist of those items that are currently on the Gras list, and obviously K@ is not. New Gras submissions can be made, this requires a 300-500 page document proving historical safe use as a food, including extensive scientific evidence. K@ cannot possibly qualify in this category.

Dietary supplements may be added through the FDA Notification program, where an entity announces their intent to sell a new one. If the FDA returns "no question", it is considered acceptable for that substance to be sold. K@ has been submitted and rejected in this process, thus ANY product containing K@ is considered adulterated.

Drug approval is a total maze of regulations I know little about, and this is the only possible classification where K@ could be added and be eligible for human consumption - and this is also where the vast majority of those who petitioned the DEA believe it belongs. K@ may be eligible for this category, but as of now it is not included. Let me also add that when you see K@ bar advocates claiming that the ABC and AHPA are their allies, they are not telling the truth. Every legitimate botanical organization knows it's a drug, and certainly none would approve of selling K@ in the manner it is being sold in "kava" bars.

Bottom line: It is explicitly illegal to sell K@ for human consumption in the USA.

I guess I'll respectfully disagree on the meaning of explicit. I'm pretty sure I know of the case your referring to, and it was a single product that was extremely misleading if you're talking about mitrasafe.

You probably know more about the process of approving new supplements, but I do know that there's recent research that pretty thoroughly proves the safety of K@ and does not support the idea that it acts as a typical mu-opioid agonist. The FDA and DEA have used inaccurate information in their previous assessments, but if you're right, the FDA is even more broken than I thought, which is really saying something.

Drug approval is virtually impossible. What makes you think it has a better chance on that route? Afaik there's no fast track for approving new drugs, so unless someone has at least a hundred million dollars to spare, it's not gonna happen.

 

[Rick.Sanchez]

I'd say K@ is in the same legal category as cement. Is there a law that specifically states "Cement Cannot be Sold in a Restaurant for the Purpose of Human Consumption"? Nope. But because cement clearly does not fit into any of the three categories of items permitted to be sold for human consumption, it is therefore clearly illegal to sell it in a smoothie.

Except there's a significant history of people consuming K@. But yes, I think you're beginning to understand that one part of my original post. Until people are prosecuted, calling it illegal to sell for human consumption is speculative, but I have a feeling the FDA and DEA have backed off for a reason. At least for now. I just don't think KF jumping on the anti-K@ band wagon is helping in any way, and I don't believe K@ is a threat to kava. If anything I would've expected a more supportive stance from other people who use psychoactive, medicinal botanicals,but instead I've been seeing alot of the same misinformation being repeated on KF

On re-read, I was irritated when I wrote my first post and I clearly worded things too strongly. My main point wasn't supposed to be about splitting hairs on legality, but I guess I did spend over half the post talking about splitting hairs on legality. I do believe that it's likely the FDA will crack down on the sale of K@ for human consumption, but it has not yet been explicitly established that it's
Illegal to sell for human consumption. However, I do believe that the laws could be interpreted that way, especially based on the import alert from the FDA. I just disagree with the KF stance that bars should not sell K@ and kava for a number of reasons, and I'm disappointed in the misinformation

 

[verticity]

We adopt all american holidays, many even celibrate thanks givings. Most shows on the tv is from USA, most music, fashion and food. Street food is in now in Stockholm because of NYC.
People follow american celebrities most of all.

I have heard that artists on tour feel like they are coming home to a strange mini USA when they come to Sweden.

Even in politics.

The weird thing is that many Americans in fact look up to the Scandinavian countries as places that are sort of more "mature" and "advanced" than here; they seem like oases of sanity compared to all the craziness we have here. But I suppose there is a downside: maybe a kind of rigidity and uniformity about certain things. And I am aware I'm speaking in stereotypes since I have never been there, so sorry if this isn't right. But, for example I have heard it said that Norway is actually very strict about enforcing laws about "soft drugs" like marijuana, etc...

 

[Rick.Sanchez]

The only reason why I am personally opposed to K@ being sold via kava bars is the negative press and attention that it attracts to kava (e.g. http://www.browardpalmbeach.com/new...e-its-specialty-drinks-were-addictive-6352435). Kava's reputation has been damaged by various dubious claims, rumours and misunderstanding. The last thing it needs is to become associated with your federal agencies' "war on K@". That's it.
I wish the K@ lovers all their best in their efforts to promote an evidence-based approach to their favourite plant. Also, I personally do not believe in prohibitions. I just see how the world works and would prefer if kava wasn't associated with any plants that are currently seen as highly questionable or even illegal by the world's most powerful country's top federal agencies.

I think that's a totally fair stance. I can see why there could be concern over the possibility of kava being caught in the crossfire. I just believe that spreading accurate information and further research on both plants is the key to ensuring they remain accessible to the public. I also think that adding to the anti-K@ wagon could just as easily make things worse for kava following that same logic.

I would 100% back ostracizing kava bars that are clearly engaged in unethical behavior such as the example of the kava bar that was denied by the city council, but I don't think it's right to say that K@ should outright not be sold at the same venue as kava.

 

[kasa_balavu]

Since some in the community will be loathe to promote and send traffic to Douglas because of his behavior of late, we need a new source of video reviews.

Who among us is willing and able to take up the mantle of Kavasseur? This heavy burden will entail having to drink copious amounts of free kava. I'd do it, but I feel I'm just not up to the task. I propose that Morgan take on this responsibility for us. Let the kava flow at The Kava Flow. Give us reviews.