Understanding the science, logic, and mechanics of the 2nd wash.

[Plantacious]

So, I'm having a difficult time understanding how you can continue to get a significant amount of kavalectones after the 1st wash.
What is different about the 2nd wash (and 3rd, etc) that allows you to pull KL's that were not extracted the first time, even though
you vigorously and thoroughly did your best to snatch every one of them out, the first time.

So, here's a good example of what I mean. Probably the easiest example to understand, is if you're using the AluBall.
Let's say I shake for 30 seconds and consume. (give or take some seconds)
The unofficial "Rules of the 2nd Wash", if I understand them correctly, say that if I add some new liquid in there, and keep
the same exact kava, that I can shake another 30 seconds, and still get some somewhat potent grog out of that same kava powder.

So...let's say, that instead of shaking for 30 seconds the first time around, that I shake it for 60 seconds.
Experience tells me that the potency probably won't be increased any, if I shake it 60 instead of 30.
So, how is it that I get any potency out of it, if I shake it 30 seconds, a 2nd time, after changing the liquid from a previous 30-second shake ?
In other words, whether I shake a total of 1 minute with the same liquid, or shake 30 seconds with a liquid, and 30 seconds with another liquid,
why is there a difference, and why is there the ability to get more out of it ?
The only difference between the mechanics of those 2 processes is that in one of them, I'm playing with "different" water, for the 2nd 30 seconds.
Yet if I do essentially "change the water", I seem to get more KL's out of it, than if I didn't change the water, and just shook 60 seconds for one time.

Am I making sense ?
I apologize, if I am making it more complicated than necessary, but I did my best.

 

[Ricardo Piquant]

I'm not a fan of second washes. Its never as full and robust as the first.

 

[fait]

My guess is that kava grog, as an emulsion, can only hold so much kavalactone content in a given volume of liquid. It can only be so saturated with kava before kavalactones won't extract further, requiring a change of liquid.

But that does not explain how you can have more potent grog with more root (powder). The liquid volume and root quantity would be more strictly tied if my above guess is accurate. Hmmmmmm...

 

[Kavashua]

I’ve found that some kavas lend themselves well to a second wash while others are a waste of time. I’ve always been fascinated by the fact that the second wash always looks like it is a waste of time (lack of viscosity etc.) but it can really drive the krunk home

 

[fait]

I do second washes and I may do a "mongrel wash" following @Krunkie McKrunkface 's example. I did a 0th wash for my latest batch of grog and went lighter on fresh powder to see how it went and my batch tasted more balanced than heavy for once. It's a good batch for the day but I did feel tired a few hours later.

 

[Plantacious]

Sorry, what's a 0th wash ?
Sounds like a toss n wash.

 

[fait]

Sorry, what's a 0th wash ?
Sounds like a toss n wash.

What I meant is I did a wash of old makas that I put in the freezer and kneaded that. Then rather than drinking that batch, I took fresh powder and kneaded it in the water. This wash with the fresh powder was the 1st wash while the wash before that was basically preparing the liquid for the 1st wash, hence "0th wash." I then did a 2nd wash with a fresh batch of water with the new root.

 

[Krunkie McKrunkface]

Seems eminently workable

 

[verticity]

My guess is that kava grog, as an emulsion, can only hold so much kavalactone content in a given volume of liquid. It can only be so saturated with kava before kavalactones won't extract further, requiring a change of liquid.

But that does not explain how you can have more potent grog with more root (powder). The liquid volume and root quantity would be more strictly tied if my above guess is accurate. Hmmmmmm...

I think you are on the right track here. To elaborate, I think the potency per wash might not be a linear effect because there are a couple different things going on when you squeeze your grog:

1) You're right that the solubility of kavalactones in water is limited. If the volume of water in the first wash is saturated with dissolved KLs, then a second wash can extract more. Some estimated solubility numbers here:
http://kavaforums.com/forum/threads...anges-after-the-first-wash.14293/#post-159152
(In that thread someone asked if different washes could have different chemotypes; my answer was "it's possible (in theory)" because of the different solubilities of different KLs...)

2) In addition to KLs directly dissolved in water, when you knead the kava there are also tiny particles of root and blobs of resin that are squeezed out and emulsified (meaning suspended but not dissolved). How much emulsified particles and resin there is probably depends on how long you knead, how hard you squeeze, and maybe also on saturation effects. So for example if you knead the first batch for 5 minutes, and then knead again for 5 minutes in fresh water, you can still see some particles and stuff coming out.

Both of the above are influenced by water temperature so with hot water extraction will be more efficient so the first wash will be stronger, and washes after the first will be weaker than with cold water..

See also Bittenbender's CTAHR method in which they experimentally tested various numbers of washes and other things:
http://kavaforums.com/forum/threads...bittenbenders-ctahr-method.14420/#post-160850

 

[recentreturn]

I agree with @verticity and @fait, that it has to do, at least, with quasi-saturation. My subjective experience is that if I have a lot of powder and not a lot of water, there seems to be a point where I feel like I am just squishing the emulsion around in the bag without adding much thickness to the grog. At that point I always feel like I am getting diminishing returns for the effort of kneading, but also that there is still a lot of good stuff left in the strainer bag but I need some fresh water to get the rest out. I would guess that with a large amount of water and smaller amount of powder it would be easier to get a fuller extraction. Moreover, when I was taught to drink grog by my brother who had been living in Fiji, I was not taught to make the grog as absolutely potent as possible, but to knead it until the grog had a certain level of opacity. Since that level could be achieved again in a second wash, it simply made sense to do a second wash; so another reason for the 2nd wash is tradition.

 

[fait]

I was not taught to make the grog as absolutely potent as possible, but to knead it until the grog had a certain level of opacity.

It was no doubt easier to "do until [criterion are met]" than "do for [x time]" Before they had clocks, there probably wasn't a reliable way to keep track of minute amounts of time.