Veteran asking which kavas effect the liver least.

[hellsprout]

Hello Kava Forum! This is my first post here, so please take it easy on me if I get the terminology wrong. I am still a bit confused about the potential liver toxicity and whether it relates to certain kava varieties. I am a veteran of Operation Iraqi Freedom dealing with PTSD and have discovered by chance kava helps alleviate some anxiety. For years I've been taking VA prescribed medication. I don't drink alcohol for fear that the combination will destroy my liver. I also fear the medication itself will eventually destroy my liver, but it's better than living with crushing depression and anxiety.

Anyway. I've watched a few videos and read some information about kava types and color tests that can be done to determine better kava for liver safety. Tudai appears to be suspected of potentially damaging the liver because ingredients found in it. Is this incorrect? I wonder why some dealers sell it given the possible dangers, and with all the other kava out there? Is there any conclusive data that identifies the safest kava for consumption? I know there are mold problems and problems with above ground plant parts use… safety is important to me given my medication use and medical history. Of course, kava sellers online and off are trying to make money with kava, so how do I know who to trust? Is there a standard when it comes to kava? Thank you for your time.

 

[Piper Methysticum]

Welcome and thank you for your service to the country. At this stage an official classification for the popular kava varieties that pose a greater risk of liver damage does not exist. Tudei/Isa varieties are frowned upon by many of the who's who of the kava industry so I would definitely keep that in mind. A golden rule is to follow along with the basic concepts that have been in practice for thousands of years. Best of luck.

 

[Deleted User01]

On the Tudie issue, there is some evidence that they may be more damaging because of certain chemicals they contain. We have a name for these Kavas, "weekend Kavas". People like them because they are very potent and the vendors almost always warn you of their potency and they don't recommend that you take these every day. Moderation wins the day.

If you buy your Kava from the vendors that are featured in this forum, then you will probably never have to worry about mold or getting the "bad parts" of the Kava plant. Good luck.

 

[Bula Kava House]

Well, my friend, thank you for your service. I'm very sorry about your PTSD, I can only imagine. We as kava vendors legally can't "prescribe" kava for anxiety but I think a lot of the people on this forum will tell you that it has helped them immensely.

There is nothing definitive that says any kava prepared traditionally causes liver damage. There is some evidence that in certain situations and quantities the compound Flavokavain B has the potential to cause liver problems. This compound exists in all kava varieties but sometimes has a higher concentrations in certain varieties often called "tudei" as in "two day" for their long lasting effects, and in wild kava varieties. Flavokavain B is also more prevalent in leaves and stems than in the root parts, so having a kava devoid of root and stems is important. As mentioned, mold tainted root could also play some sort of role, as could the way in which the kavalactones are extracted. A traditional aqueous extract is seen as the best choice.

We at Bula Kava House sell seven varieties of kava. Six of these seven wouldn't be considered tudei by anyone. They would be considered "noble" kava by many, meaning they are safe and pleasant kavas for everyday drinking and would therefore have very low levels of flavokavain B. The one kava we sell that isn't considered noble, Koniak, has some properties of a tudei although the lactone profile shows it somewhat straddling the line. We feel comfortable selling it because it has been enjoyed safely where it grows for a long time, and we don't promote it as a kava for everyday use. Besides, I'm not going to tell anyone to avoid any kava then myself go for a couple alcoholic cocktails after work, which I occasionally do. Talk about liver damage!

All of our kava is VERY highly rated on this forum. Go ahead and ask around. It's also some of the most reasonably priced available.

If you have any questions about any of the kava we sell, or anything else kava related for that matter let me know. I'm here to help. Welcome to the forum.

 

[infraredz]

Welcome! Believe me (as someone who has PTSD) that kava can heal almost all wounds.

This is pulled from draft Andrew just upoaded but sums up the hepatotoxicity perfectly:
A recent WHO [World Health Organization] risk assessment concluded that “clinical trial of kava have not revealed hepato[to]xicity as a problem suggesting that “water extracts are devoid of toxic effects” and recommending that “products should be developed from water-based suspensions of kava”

As long as you are using the root from non-tudei kava, and preparing it with water and not a strong solvent, there is only one reason to worry (unfortunately). What medication are you taking and in what doses? From what I know of the VA there might be some issues with some of the meds they might have you on.

 

[infraredz]

Anyway. I've watched a few videos and read some information about kava types and color tests that can be done to determine better kava for liver safety. Tudai appears to be suspected of potentially damaging the liver because ingredients found in it. Is this incorrect? I wonder why some dealers sell it given the possible dangers, and with all the other kava out there? Is there any conclusive data that identifies the safest kava for consumption? I know there are mold problems and problems with above ground plant parts use… safety is important to me given my medication use and medical history. Of course, kava sellers online and off are trying to make money with kava, so how do I know who to trust? Is there a standard when it comes to kava? Thank you for your time.

To address each question specifically though, you are correct that tudei is suspected to be more toxic than non-tudei kava because of a compound found in much higher percentages. There is however, not enough conclusive proof regarding FKB (although pretty close to it, for me) for reasonable doubt to be cast.

The safest kava will be one from a reputable seller here and is referred to as "noble" by the country of Vanuatu, but not other countries who don't have the distinction. This is where there was some semantics going on, and the Oceanic kava industry is working on coming up with a more standardized approach to kava so hopefully that will be in place soon. The easiest way to try to think of it is that "noble" kava is sort of the opposite of tudei. Kava from Fiji, Tonga and some from Hawaii (and most likely the Solomon's Island kava) is going to be safe and would be called noble if it was from Vanuatu. Kava from PNG has a reputation for being tudei, or at least having strong similarities to tudei. Also, beware of ISA kava which is another name for tudei kava. All the vendors on our site are trusted and have a long record as being the best vendors out there (at least in the US). Others, such as kava from Amazon, eBay, etc should be avoided in my opinion.

Again, the only issue regarding safety to be concerned about is your medication. Shoot me a message privately if you don't want to post that sort of thing publicly and I'd be glad to help you out.

 

[Andrew Procyk]

Thanks for taking the time to check with a bunch of kava-heads before embarking on your journey with the root! Hope I won't be long winded in my hopes to be thorough... but anyway...

Most of the other fellows covered things pretty well here, so I don't want to be redundant. As far as "noble" kavas go, as Judd correctly pointed out, that is a name that is used by Ni-van (Native Vanuatu) drinkers, producers and exporters, but pretty much anything listed in the Codex Alimentaruis for kava (a document developed by the Food and Agriculture Organization of the UN for safe foods and practices related to them) would be considered safe to drink. I posted it in an earlier thread, but if you need it directly, feel free to shoot me a message on here, and I will get a copy straight to you. It is also interesting to note, despite kava being considered a "nutritional supplement" in the US, the body of the UN that deals with safe foods has a comprehensive paper on it. So... what does that tell you? ;-) There is a move by some in the scientific community to register kava as a safe food, or by US standards "GRAS." (Generally regarded as safe.) Sadly, we are not there yet, but we can hope it will happen soon with some work. Because of the unfortunate incident at the turn of the century, we are essentially starting with a clean slate. (11 years of peer review, none of which links kava to hepatotoxicity, still does not carry the weight of a few dozen anecdotal situations.)

Additionally, as mentioned, the above ground parts of the plants are unsafe, as they contain piper methysticines, which are toxic compounds. Flavokawain-B happens in below ground organs of non-noble (tudei and wild) kavas in much greater amounts than in noble/drinkable varieties, so much greater as to be considered significant. That said, organic solvent extracts remove roughly five times the FKB that water-based extracts do, so if you plan to tincture your kava, it is particularly important to pay attention to that. I do not want to say that it is not important for noble types, because my tendency is to err on the side of caution, and that is what Dr. Lebot's advice was. I think it is safe to say he is a researcher that almost everyone here respects greatly. So, if you are using a solvent, it is particularly important to be careful. You'll find most people on here prefer the traditional aqueous "brew," and with good reason.

As per the above ground parts - I think I can safely say that there is not a vendor on this forum that would dare sell you stems and leaves. Everyone wants their customers to live a long time, and nobody wants an injury report filed with FDA as a result of their kava. (Talk about bad publicity!)

As you mention PTSD, there is a recent study out of OZ that they claim was the "first" clinical trial of kava for GAD (Generalized Anxiety Disorders.) The results are very promising. http://newsroom.melbourne.edu/news/world-first-clinical-trial-supports-use-kava-treat-anxiety Of course, nobody can recommend kava be used for ANY condition, as the difference FDA recognizes between a nutritional supplement and a drug is the claims that are made about its usefulness/effects. As soon as someone says "kava is good for anxiety," it becomes a "drug" in FDA's eyes, so most vendors are very careful to avoid such claims.

Hope all of that helps, and whatever the case, I hope that you find relief from your depression and anxiety. I will also say this: Kava has been shown to increase feelings of depression, and it is not recommended for those with chronic depression - so that is something you may want to look out for, despite any positive claims about it by others for other conditions. As infraredz said, the other meds are important to consider too. There is some evidence that kava can inhibit the functions of CYP450 enzymes, which are the same ones hindered by grapefruit juice. It is postulated that kava blocks the channels of the endoplasmic reticulum of some liver cells. So, even if the meds do not list concomitant contraindications with kava, if it says "do not take grapefruit juice with this medication," I would personally avoid it unless you check with your healthcare provider first. Again, it is not a drug, it is a supplement, so there is only so much we can/can't say on here, be we can say be careful, and wish you well. Cheers!

Very Truly,
Iahi (Andrew)

 

[infraredz]

Just to add a bit on to Andrew's comments (which are all right on point), kava inhibits over a half dozen CYP enzymes and very powerfully too (74% for CYP 3A4 which is what grapefruit juice inhibits). I would say that kava inhibits 95% of the enzymes (in differing amounts) involved with metabolizing any medicine or drug out there. Also, I have experience first-hand with kava and certain psych meds (that I'm guessing you're on, due to all the news reports about vets and the VA) and there are significant things to take into account. The problem is that most doctors have no clue what kava is or how it works (even the research community can't agree on a lot). I'm not a doctor, but I could give you some healthy caution if it seems like it's necessary but always consult your MD before doing anything.

 

[Andrew Procyk]

Spot on Infraredz! CYP450 refers to the whole "super" family of enzymes, but getting into the specifics is pretty juicy - no pun intended on the grapefruit juice itself. They remove a whole host of organic contaminants. Which reminds me, not sure if I have yet to post it, but I have a limerick with some biochemical humor...

I've got an enzyme that's so nifty
It's called cytochrome P-450
But you can't cut loose
With the grapefruit juice
Or the bond-braking might get shifty

DOH! ;-)

(Yes, I am a poet in my spare time. But... the quality of my poetry will be left up to all of you to judge.)

Thanks, cheers, and watch out for negative concomitant reactions!

Iahi