Wow! kava: low kavalactone % but strong effects?

[Thomas2060]

Many reviews say that Wow! kava from Nakamal is very potent. Yet looking at the lab reports, most batches only have 5-6% kavalactone content.

In comparison, people also say Stone kava is potent, but that makes more sense given its 9% kavalactone content.

Can someone help me understand the relationship here? Why is it that a kava with relatively low kavalactone content can feel "strong" to people? I realize there are many factors at play when people CONSUME kava, like how it was prepared, how full your stomach is, etc. That's not what I'm asking about.

As far as the kava itself, are there other factors in its potency beyond kavalactone content?

 

[avahZ]

I have always felt there was more to than just the K%. What? I don’t know. I have had the same experiences. Maybe the amount of cellulose in the roots? A high amount could mean we are not extracting as much K?

I have tried many methods of extraction, from murdering the roots with my vitamix or strait up chinese extracts. I only get a krunk session from good ol fashioned med grind traditional prep and that is hit or miss.

 

[TheKavaSociety]

I am increasingly convinced total kl % is a fairly poor indicator of potency. Or rather: the correlation between total % and potency (not to mention enjoyability of the experience) is far from clear. Perhaps we just extract a similar amount of lactones in the first wash regardless of the overall %, perhaps it's a matter of synergy with other phytochemicals. Hard to tell, but I had two batches of the same cultivar. One tested 12% and another 7% and I honestly couldn't tell the difference. Maybe a bit stronger, but def not anywhere near as much as the quantitative difference might indicate.

I think @Alia might have some thoughts on whether total kl is a useful measurement.

 

[_byron]

KL measurement would be way more useful if it included the breakdown of each kavalactone's percentage. A tudei could have a very high percentage of total kavalactones, but the strong effects would not be the desirable ones.

 

[Thomas2060]

KL measurement would be way more useful if it included the breakdown of each kavalactone's percentage. A tudei could have a very high percentage of total kavalactones, but the strong effects would not be the desirable ones.

The lab report from Nakamal does provide this breakdown. Someone smarter than me could probably use the breakdown to find some kind of relationship between ratios of different kavalactones. Unfortunately, not that many kava vendors provide these, which surprises me. If you're legit, what have you got to lose? I bet most would provide it if you asked, but why not just put it on your website like Nakamal? Even Kalm, which seems like an outstanding enterprise in every other way, does not post its certificates.

 

[Alia]

I am increasingly convinced total kl % is a fairly poor indicator of potency. Or rather: the correlation between total % and potency (not to mention enjoyability of the experience) is far from clear. Perhaps we just extract a similar amount of lactones in the first wash regardless of the overall %, perhaps it's a matter of synergy with other phytochemicals. Hard to tell, but I had two batches of the same cultivar. One tested 12% and another 7% and I honestly couldn't tell the difference. Maybe a bit stronger, but def not anywhere near as much as the quantitative difference might indicate.

I think @Alia might have some thoughts on whether total kl is a useful measurement.

I contend that kavalactones are over rated.
Some fairly recent scientific papers have discussed the entourage effect "a group of assistants who go along"... .
All these ingredients are essential for full effect.
In old Hawai'i there was- mana* associated with older 'awa plants.
*miraculous power;
It is interesting to note (but not relevent to this) Māna, with the Long ahhh Maaaaaa-na, means "A chewed mass, as of kava for drinking".

 

[AlexisReal]

You ask a good question @Thomas2060 and one I did too, quickly arriving at the same conclusiin as the wise members above.

Coincidentally, it was too, WoW kava that struck this chord in me.

It was in my rotation for a while before I saw 6% KL reeults.

I was like- Eh? Haha, not much deeper.

Then @Henry shared the expereince above, no detectable potency difference from 12% batch to much lower.

Hopefully one day fresh discovery on Kava's overall psychoactive action and composition will bring new measurable aspects to the overall.

But I think yes sure, more to it than KL % alone. Maybe some cultivars KL are more active at lower doses.


Or maybe less .kL is the result of sometimes, or enables higher ratios of some other, possibly yet to be understood, psychoactive elements of Kava, like Terpenes in medical cannabis and the entourage and potentiation.

Maybe high KL% even downgrades some other, unstudied actives effects?

Just some thoughts anyway. Pinch of salt please. I look up lots to you guys for your knowlege here. 1 year daily- I'm still a green banana lol!

 

[AlexisReal]

I contend that kavalactones are over rated.
Some fairly recent scientific papers have discussed the entourage effect "a group of assistants who go along"... .
All these ingredients are essential for full effect.
In old Hawai'i there was- mana* associated with older 'awa plants.
*miraculous power;
It is interesting to note (but not relevent to this) Māna, with the Long ahhh Maaaaaa-na, means "A chewed mass, as of kava for drinking".

Haha, I just replied, read your post now. Assurring to my (questionable) witts, I did mention the possible entourage effect, also the suggestion some KL could inhibit the expression and effect of lesser identified active factors.

 

[TheKavaSociety]

I have a few other theories, none has been definitively confirmed by any research, but just a few thoughts:

- HPLC results demonstrate total kl% when extracted with acetone. Is it perhaps possible that this doesn't neatly translate/correlate with the amounts that become available via traditional cold water preparation?

-Based on my experience with juicing/making kava from greeen roots, it is MUCH easier to juice the stump than it is to get much juice out of the roots. The former is technically weaker in kavalactone content, but I am not sure if the juice that can be produced from stump is necessarily dramatically weaker than the juice made from lateral roots. Now, I have no idea whether this is of any relevance to making kava using dry powder (I assume the stump just has softer tissue and retains more water in green kava and hence it's easier to release the resinn?), but who knows. Perhaps stump tissue is softer or the resin trapped in it is somehow easier to push out? This would mean that a kava with lower kl % due to extra stump content, might still produce a drink that is very strong, despite theoretically having a low kavalactone content.

-Perhaps the difference in total kl% is only clear when one does a few washes as opposed to just one or max two? We know that the water gets "saturated" with kavalactones/starch fairly quickly and we can get more from our powder by getting some fresh water as opposed to merely kenading for extra 10, 20 minutes. Maybe a 6% kava will create an equally strong/weak beverage as a 12% kava when you do just one wash, but if you do 3-4 washes you can hope to get out more from the latter?

 

[AlexisReal]

I have a few other theories, none has been definitively confirmed by any research, but just a few thoughts:

- HPLC results demonstrate total kl% when extracted with acetone. Is it perhaps possible that this doesn't neatly translate/correlate with the amounts that become available via traditional cold water preparation?

-Based on my experience with juicing/making kava from greeen roots, it is MUCH easier to juice the stump than it is to get much juice out of the roots. The former is technically weaker in kavalactone content, but I am not sure if the juice that can be produced from stump is necessarily dramatically weaker than the juice made from lateral roots. Now, I have no idea whether this is of any relevance to making kava using dry powder (I assume the stump just has softer tissue and retains more water in green kava and hence it's easier to release the resinn?), but who knows. Perhaps stump tissue is softer or the resin trapped in it is somehow easier to push out this? This would mean that a kava with lower kl % due to extra stump content, might still produce a drink that is very strong, despite theoretically having a low kavalactone content.

-Perhaps the difference in total kl% is only clear when one does a few washes as opposed to just one or max two? We know that the water gets "saturated" with kavalactones/starch fairly quickly and we can get more from our powder by getting some fresh water as opposed to merely kenading for extra 10, 20 minutes. Maybe a 6% kava will create an equally strong/weak beverage as a 12% kava when you do just one wash, but if you do 3-4 washes you can hope to get out more from the latter?

That last point definitely makes a lot of sense Henry, like a sort of saturation limit, in which case it may apply more or less depending on total water volume in the first wash.

I know at KS, as well as having generally preferred mostly the headier, more sociable,,freah rejuvenated after feeling cultivars like Kelai and Palarasul, you also suggest 30 gramd root into 600 ml water.

Somebody else may use 1 litre per 30 grams, so possibly more saturation room first wash round. Or just, regardless of water amounts, only so much KL's can be sqeezed out at a time.

Mixture of both even possibly.

 

[Thomas2060]

-Based on my experience with juicing/making kava from greeen roots, it is MUCH easier to juice the stump than it is to get much juice out of the roots.

That tracks with WOW, which is 75% stump.

-We know that the water gets "saturated" with kavalactones/starch fairly quickly and we can get more from our powder by getting some fresh water as opposed to merely kenading for extra 10, 20 minutes

I did not know that actually! I thought you were better off making a thick, oily brew.

 

[TheKavaSociety]

I did not know that actually! I thought you were better off making a thick, oily brew.

It hits you harder (especially kavain) this way, but it doesn't mean you extract more kls. Doing 3-4 washes with a high water-to-root ratio will end up getting out more resin than making a single thick wash. However, not everyone actually wants to drink watery kava, both because the effects are different and also because it makes many people bloated. But if you were making instant kava/water-extracted extract, you'd definetely want to make it with extra water and maybe multiple washes.