Kava FAQ How much does one cultivar vary from same vendor?

[evrnd]

I realize that there are a lot of factors that can effect the way that I feel from drinking kava but I think that I noticed from one order to the next that the potency seemed to have changed. Maybe it even varies from bag to bag from the same batch? Hell, maybe this is Kava 101 and someone can point me in the direction of a previous thread or an article about the cultivation/harvest/distribution that would explain this. I know many plants have peak growing seasons and many psychoactive ones seem to have peak effect harvesting seasons.
So maybe one batch of Mahakea, for example, will be amazeballs and the next one is just ok?

 

[PapaMoi]

I have noticed cultivars feeling different at different times, etc. It is hard (or practically impossible) to gauge how much of it relates to the actual kava and how much of it has to do with the context it was drunk in, how much, method of prep, etc.
Kava is one of those things where you have good days and great days and sometimes nothing in the way of effects.
But when it's on...it's on! I have had some profound experiences while drinking kava. I'm talking about times where I sat back and reflected on my life and was able to see how big the universe is and think abstractly about 'everything'. Real treehugger type stuff.
And I've other times where I just felt tired and lethargic. The trouble for me is that I never know how a kava is going to feel because each experience is unique. That is part of the beauty of it for me, too. One cannot set foot in the same river twice, according to Heraclitus. I wonder what he would say about how varied kava experiences can be!

 

[kastom_lif]

There's variability because kava comes from many stumps grown in different gardens. Vendors grind it up in big batches, but there's still going to be variability.

I don't know if the time of year makes a difference. Never heard of any cultural/anthropological talk about kava being stronger or weaker during a particular season. The KL's seem to build up in the roots and just stay there year round. Besides, as a tropical plant the main seasonal variation that kava faces is dry season / wet season.

Now, subjectively I totally agree with PapaMoi. Kava affects me differently sometimes because I'm listening to it in different ways. Or maybe I had a late lunch, or I'm preoccupied with other thoughts, or I'm dehydrated, et cetera.

 

[kasa_balavu]

Just as an FYI, GHK is the only place you're guaranteed to get a single cultivar. All other vendors don't sight the plants from which the kava comes and believe the kava they receive to be whatever their supplier says it is.

Kava from all other vendors is almost certainly a blend of multiple cultivars. This being the case, variation is inevitable.

When you do get a single cultivar, the effects should be fairly consistent but the potency can vary. For example, GHK doesn't grow all his kava in one place... AFAIK he has 2 or 3 farms in different parts of the island. The kavalactone content (and therefore potency) of any given plant will depend on the soil, micro-climate, and most importantly sunlight in the final year of growth. Then when it comes to harvest and grinding, the blend ratio of lawena (stem) to waka (roots) also affects potency.

Consistency is always going to be a problem.

 

[evrnd]

Just as an FYI, GHK is the only place you're guaranteed to get a single cultivar. All other vendors don't sight the plants from which the kava comes and believe the kava they receive to be whatever their supplier says it is.

Kava from all other vendors is almost certainly a blend of multiple cultivars. This being the case, variation is inevitable.

When you do get a single cultivar, the effects should be fairly consistent but the potency can vary. For example, GHK doesn't grow all his kava in one place... AFAIK he has 2 or 3 farms in different parts of the island. The kavalactone content (and therefore potency) of any given plant will depend on the soil, micro-climate, and most importantly sunlight in the final year of growth. Then when it comes to harvest and grinding, the blend ratio of lawena (stem) to waka (roots) also affects potency.

Consistency is always going to be a problem.

Thanks. Exactly the kind of info I was looking for.

 

[evrnd]

It's a bit tricky. The same cultivar can offer different effects and taste depending on such factors as:
-soil
-weather (dry weather offer creates more bitter kavas and may also affect the chemotype)
-ratio of root to stump
-age
-processing technique

It doesn't mean one shouldn't pay attention to cultivars, but it's pretty clear the cultivar isn't the whole story. Think of wine. "Sauvignon Blanc" from a shitty winery in a crappy wine region won't be anywhere near as nice as a Sauvignon Blanc from a good winery in Marlborough. Likewise, each vintage is a bit different.

Thank you. And I did mean same cultivar from the same vendor, in case that wasn't clear.
I am so glad I consulted this forum before I started getting into this stuff. Not that I think I would have landed on some of the questionable Amazon stuff but it's nice to have a set of trusted vendors.

 

[evrnd]

Yes. I guess the first part of my post applies to the same cultivar offered by the same vendor as well. I've been drinking @Gourmet Hawaiian Kava for years and have noticed that the flavour, potency and effect varies slightly between batches. All of their kava is amazing, but some batches are a bit milder, while others slightly more peppery. One batch of Mo'i can be uber heady, the other one slightly more balanced. This is totally normal and is a sign that Chris' kava has a true connection to the land. Justl ike fine French wines that vary in profile across vintages.

I have a lot to learn but I am eager to soak it up. It was the Mahakea from GHK that I initially noticed a difference with. I didn't think it was a question of quality as much the variables you guys have written about. On top of all of that, of course, I am well aware that everything going on with me will have an effect as well.

 

[Krunkie McKrunkface]

Just as an FYI, GHK is the only place you're guaranteed to get a single cultivar. All other vendors don't sight the plants from which the kava comes and believe the kava they receive to be whatever their supplier says it is.

Kava from all other vendors is almost certainly a blend of multiple cultivars. This being the case, variation is inevitable.

When you do get a single cultivar, the effects should be fairly consistent but the potency can vary. For example, GHK doesn't grow all his kava in one place... AFAIK he has 2 or 3 farms in different parts of the island. The kavalactone content (and therefore potency) of any given plant will depend on the soil, micro-climate, and most importantly sunlight in the final year of growth. Then when it comes to harvest and grinding, the blend ratio of lawena (stem) to waka (roots) also affects potency.

Consistency is always going to be a problem.

The amount of consistency we do see is amazing given the odds against it, IMO. I'm constantly amazed at the very high standards and consistency we see with even mediocre kava available at the moment, and even more so with the premium grinds.

As for GHK I thought he grew all his stuff in New Jersey and the secret was all in the magic grinding machine he has.

 

[Kava Time]

I realize that there are a lot of factors that can effect the way that I feel from drinking kava but I think that I noticed from one order to the next that the potency seemed to have changed. Maybe it even varies from bag to bag from the same batch? Hell, maybe this is Kava 101 and someone can point me in the direction of a previous thread or an article about the cultivation/harvest/distribution that would explain this. I know many plants have peak growing seasons and many psychoactive ones seem to have peak effect harvesting seasons.
So maybe one batch of Mahakea, for example, will be amazeballs and the next one is just ok?

This variation (from bag to bag) of the same batch usually happens because of processing. For eg, some machines are able to process only 10 - 20kg at a time. If the kava is being mixed (lawena and waka) then the ratio needs to be weighed properly. If it doesn't get weighed then a single batch of 100kg imported kava could have 5 - 10 potency variations. Kinda like how you need to measure right amount of ingredients in baking cakes to achieve a level of consistency. Too much of a single ingredient can have a different outcome.
if the whole batch of 100kg were blended to homogenize it then this problem wouldn't occur. No one does this because the kava industry hasn't reached that commercial level yet.

 

[TheKavaFlow]

Just as an FYI, GHK is the only place you're guaranteed to get a single cultivar. All other vendors don't sight the plants from which the kava comes and believe the kava they receive to be whatever their supplier says it is.

Kava from all other vendors is almost certainly a blend of multiple cultivars. This being the case, variation is inevitable.

When you do get a single cultivar, the effects should be fairly consistent but the potency can vary. For example, GHK doesn't grow all his kava in one place... AFAIK he has 2 or 3 farms in different parts of the island. The kavalactone content (and therefore potency) of any given plant will depend on the soil, micro-climate, and most importantly sunlight in the final year of growth. Then when it comes to harvest and grinding, the blend ratio of lawena (stem) to waka (roots) also affects potency.

Consistency is always going to be a problem.

Not to be that guy, but there are vendors that source directly from farmers instead of wholesalers. In fact, if you're going to guarantee noble kava (which I did), it's the only way you can do so. Each individual shipment is required to be consistent, and wholesalers can't guarantee that.

While I myself didn't actually set foot on the islands, I knew who I was dealing with. We all know Mike at KWK goes to the islands routinely to meet with his farmers, and I've seen Judd go ?once? before as well, so I think it's unfair to say you can't purchase a single cultivar from US importers/retailers.

edit: But I love me some GHK

 

[Groggy]

Not to be that guy, but there are vendors that source directly from farmers instead of wholesalers. In fact, if you're going to guarantee noble kava (which I did), it's the only way you can do so. Each individual shipment is required to be consistent, and wholesalers can't guarantee that.

While I myself didn't actually set foot on the islands, I knew who I was dealing with. We all know Mike at KWK goes to the islands routinely to meet with his farmers, and I've seen Judd go ?once? before as well, so I think it's unfair to say you can't purchase a single cultivar from US importers/retailers.

edit: But I love me some GHK

Thank you for being that guy and sparing me the post, specially since you were a vendor.

 

[Deleted User01]

I can say that the Moi and Nene that I get from GHK never varies. But of course he is a farmer and what I get is farm to market. It's always consistent. That being said, I saw an acetone test on a popular kava that was brown 1 day and yellow a few months later. Now that is a big difference in consistency and I have no idea how it can be called by the same name day in and day out. As stated above, the Kava was sold to the vendor by a wholesaler. And to add to "that guy", the kava shortage is probably responsible for wholesalers doing a little cheating so the consistency problem is worse now that it has ever been. So now you know why some of our vendors go though all the time and expense to deal directly with the farmer. It's no accident that they also have their kavas tested and have the seal to prove it.

 

[Groggy]

I can say that the Moi and Nene that I get from GHK never varies. But of course he is a farmer and what I get is farm to market. It's always consistent. That being said, I saw an acetone test on a popular kava that was brown 1 day and yellow a few months later. Now that is a big difference in consistency and I have no idea how it can be called by the same name day in and day out. As stated above, the Kava was sold to the vendor by a wholesaler. And to add to "that guy", the kava shortage is probably responsible for wholesalers doing a little cheating so the consistency problem is worse now that it has ever been. So now you know why some of our vendors go though all the time and expense to deal directly with the farmer. It's no accident that they also have their kavas tested and have the seal to prove it.

I have nothing against Chris and his kavas and very much enjoy most of them. That being said, I don't think anyone should assume that all vendors get their kava from a whole seller, Squanch is another example of someone who has direct access to the farmer and knows exactly what he is getting every time. I am certain like Cactus kava, there are other vendors who have intimate or close working relationships with their farmers without ever traveling to the Pacific to examine the crops.

Not that it is a bad thing for the vendors that do travel often and visit their suppliers and farmers, like Mike from KWK.

I applaud Garry and his efforts with TK but don't think all vendors need that label as a means to prove their kava is noble.

 

[Deleted User01]

Fair point about Squanch. I wished the vendors who buy directly from the farmer (without the pesky middlemen) would post their stories here. I think it is also fair to point out that you can set the rules with the wholesaler and refuse the shipment if it doesn't pass muster. I think the old fashion acetone test can help any vendor make sure that his kava does not have "unauthorized additives".

 

[Krunkie McKrunkface]

for me nothing quite beats the consensus of a few people who I know know their root. If anything, that means more to me than any lab results.

Plus, I'm starting to get good enough that in the process of opening a bag, looking at the grind, smelling it, touching it, prepping it, smelling the grog, long before it ever gets to my lips I have a fairly good idea of the experience I'm about to have. Maybe not the specifics of the experience, but the level of quality. I'm still open minded enough to accept an outlier, though.

 

[Deleted User01]

I start work early and it's balls to the wall till 5. I can't afford next day effects. So if the reviewer is on a month long vacation or unemployed, then I can't relate. I like it when they say, "And I went to work with a mellow attitude and handled all the crisis' handily". I have always said that Tudei is not that harmful as long as you ain't doing rocket science, working with electricity, working a high rise crane, or wrestling bears for a living. Man, am I picking on da Bears today or what.

 

[SelfBiasResistor]

I've bought a lot of root from GHK over the years and even it does vary from harvest to harvest. I appreciate the harvested on date for that reason. Cactus has always been very consistent...

 

[kasa_balavu]

... I think it's unfair to say you can't purchase a single cultivar from US importers/retailers.

To be clear, I said that there is no way to *guarantee* that you're getting a single cultivar. This is true of any vendor, including GHK... I was just making the point that it all comes down to trust, and how many parties need to be trusted.

There was no way for me to put that such that it wouldn't upset people
If it wasn't clear in my earlier post, based on the little I know of the vendors who claim to sell cultivars, I trust them and am not now and have never before accused them of being dishonest about their product.

All I wanted to point out is that if you asked Chris Allen for a specific Kava cultivar, you would have to take his word for it that what he sent you is what he said it is. There is no way for you to verify this.

If you asked me to send you Loa Kasa Balavu from Fiji, I could send you a blend of Vula Kasa Leka, Qila Leka, and Loa Kasa Leka and you'd be none the wiser. Nobody would be able to verify whether I told a lie, and nobody would be harmed by my lie.

On the contrary, *I* could be harmed by sending you a single cultivar. How? Well I've been growing kava for 30 years and nobody has ever given two shits what cultivar I sold them. There is no difference in the price of various cultivars and never has been. The result of this is that on my kava farm I have a mix of cultivars (though one or two dominate) because I planted whatever cuttings I had at the time.

Now Joe Vendor wants me to sell him a specific cultivar. The problem is that if I go out and harvest just that cultivar, I end up increasing my exposure to pilferage. Here's an illustration of what I mean:

If you look closely at the kava field at bottom right, you'll notice that I've lost some Vula Kasa Leka as well. A wise kava farmer starts harvesting from one side of the field and doesn't jump around. The harvest can take weeks or months and it's difficult to monitor theft if you don't follow this method.

Now if I harvest my kava as shown in the top row, I may have enough Loa Kasa Balavu to meet Joe Vendor's order, but if I don't, mixing in a bit of Vula Kasa Leka makes no difference to Joe Vendor or his customers. I have no incentive to be honest, and nobody is harmed by my dishonesty.

It all comes down to trust. Does Joe Vendor trust me? Do his customers trust me? Are there any incentives to keep me honest?
That's my only point.

I should add that now that I know that there's a market for specific cultivars, I'll make a conscious effort to grow more cultivars and maybe do so in different fields. Three years from now things may be different.

Note that in all this, the integrity of Joe Vendor is never in question.

Note to those new to KF: I am not a kava farmer.




.

 

[Intrepidus_dux]

This is a very enlightening thread! I wish I could be Joe the farmer!

 

[Groggy]

@kasa_balavu My only question for you and criticism is how come you are not a vendor here? I mean come on man, share the wealth.