A wider spectrum

[KavaKavaJava]

Folks, I'm going to be blunt with all of you. I live in Florida (Tampa area) and I'm about fed up with all the terrible reputation Kava has gained. I've visited several kava bars/lounges and it's all complete bullshit.

Nobody seems to know in my area what noble kava is or any repuatable vendors. It's just a damn shame to me to see such a beautiful thing become toxic. The typical kava bar charges outrageous prices for one shell and doesnt even prepare it correctly.

Unfortunatly the K@ pushing is hard here and most folks do that. I personally have no problem with said botanical(I have severe pain) but at the same note why am I going to a kava bar to get K@ drinks when I should be having delicious Kava drinks?

I guess my point here is I wish I had the money and opportunity to do this the right way and also wish we could push all these scumbags out of here. There is ZERO safety standard in ANY of these "Kava bars" and as a proper consumer I'm pissed off.

Thanks for listening- Zack

 

[The Kap'n]

Folks, I'm going to be blunt with all of you. I live in Florida (Tampa area) and I'm about fed up with all the terrible reputation Kava has gained. I've visited several kava bars/lounges and it's all complete bullshit.

Nobody seems to know in my area what noble kava is or any repuatable vendors. It's just a damn shame to me to see such a beautiful thing become toxic. The typical kava bar charges outrageous prices for one shell and doesnt even prepare it correctly.

Unfortunatly the K@ pushing is hard here and most folks do that. I personally have no problem with said botanical(I have severe pain) but at the same note why am I going to a kava bar to get K@ drinks when I should be having delicious Kava drinks?

I guess my point here is I wish I had the money and opportunity to do this the right way and also wish we could push all these scumbags out of here. There is ZERO safety standard in ANY of these "Kava bars" and as a proper consumer I'm pissed off.

Thanks for listening- Zack

Thank you for being direct. This is an issue that even other official kava bars have taken strong note of. Check out Modernesian Kava Social. They're in Tampa, and only serve kava. In fact, they're of the same mind. They use kavaltyics for testing. See if you can catch Matt there, and tell him about this post and how you feel. I promise you and he will have much to talk about.

 

[fait]

The kava and K@ overlap is unreal. Some of my friends I have introduced to kava who are somewhat familiar with it have asked if I know about K@ like it's an assumption that because I drink kava that I also have familiarity with the other plant. It's a bold statement that would need bold backing-up, but the kava-K@ subject intertwining is a very Western notion.[citation needed] More likely than not the average Pacific Islander who drinks kava has no idea what K@ is, meanwhile.[citation needed]

(I wish I knew how to superscript on here)

 

[KavaKavaJava]

Fait I appreciate your input you've been a big help to me since day one here. Keep on keeping on buddy. I talked with Kap and hopefully one day here I can start a nice facility (non profit) to educate others on this amazing botanical.

Currently my job cannot support a facility or Kava bar but I'll be damned if I dont stop trying.

 

[Jerome]

I'm in the Tampa area as well. About 5 years back I noticed the strip clubs advertising kava/K@ on their billboards. I told my wife "look, we should give it a try". Did not go over well.

I've never been to a kava bar in the area but there is one in the Safety Harbor area I won a gift card to. But unfortunately they also push the K@.

 

[KavaKavaJava]

Jerome we are literally in the exact same area. What can we do? Any inputs? How can we offer delicious REAL kava? BTW please feel free to message

Unfortunately these Kava bars use tuedei Kava (most likely a VERY VERY typical "amazon" product) in which we all know..

 

[Mo'iety]

Well in some respects you're lucky to have kava bars at all. Here in Seattle there are none. I've been to Bula in Portland and I really wish we had something like that here.

 

[Kavashua]

Jerome we are literally in the exact same area. What can we do? Any inputs? How can we offer delicious REAL kava? BTW please feel free to message

Unfortunately these Kava bars use tuedei Kava (most likely a VERY VERY typical "amazon" product) in which we all know..

I only know of one tuday on Amazon. If you know of another please pm the brand I’m curious as to which one it is ( the one I know of is marketed as a tuday)

 

[Gourmet Hawaiian Kava]

Jerome we are literally in the exact same area. What can we do? Any inputs? How can we offer delicious REAL kava? BTW please feel free to message

Unfortunately these Kava bars use tuedei Kava (most likely a VERY VERY typical "amazon" product) in which we all know..

I have always been for noble kava, I also knew that this current state that you describe would happen, mostly because there are prominent people that others look to for advise that promote tudei kava.
If you ever need a good supply of my Hawaiian kava let me know, I will help you out.
Aloha.

Chris

 

[The Kap'n]

If you ever need a good supply of my Hawaiian kava let me know, I will help you out.
Aloha.

Chris

Thanks for reaching out, Chris. I spent about an hour chatting with him yesterday. Definitely a person with similar motivations that we see here often, and that's helping others.

 

[KavaKavaJava]

I really appreciate everybody. Kavashua, theres so many of them it would be hard to name them all out but based on comments I've read on each product I can only assume its tudei.

Chris your awesome thank you for that. Mo'iety I'd rather not have sketchy kava bars but valid point. It was a pleasure talking to you Kap. I'll look into those products for you and shoot you a PM probably tomorow Kavashua.

Sorry to be so short with you folks today, it's been one brutal brutal day.

 

[KavaKavaJava]

Very interesting, makes alot of sense. 20kg is barely anything looking at the bigger picture.

 

[SelfBiasResistor]

I understand people in this forum like to blame K@ for the worlds problems but just like kava, it is just a plant. What people do with it is on them. Also, K@ really is not illegal in most of the world. Most of the places it's restricted are countries that restrict access to kava also (some of Europe, Australia, etc). In most of the US it's legal to possess, sell and consume so there is no need to sell it "under the counter". Every time I look at menus of these establishments, it's listed. I think the problem is people see kava being sold and assume it should be a kava only establishment which most of them are not. Most of them are in the business to make money and they will sell whatever people will buy and could care less about K@ or kava.

 

[SelfBiasResistor]

There is no place in America where the sale of K@ for human consumption is legal, so yes, it makes sense to sell it under the counter. Yes, some places advertise it, but none calls itself a K@ bar and few are that open about it. I keep seeing "exotic tea" on the menus published online.

That's just it, it's not illegal to sell it for human consumption. That idea has been pushed on this forum for years but it's not true. Just because it's not regulated by the FDA it doesn't mean it's illegal activity. It becomes illegal when sold for consumption and medical claims are made because at that point it's considered a drug and then the FDA will take action because no herb is FDA approved for treating any medical condition.

Otherwise you're right. The kava "booming" articles are mostly journalist sensationalism. The average American doesn't know what kava or K@ is and could care less. In some areas there is a lot of local consumer interest in exotic teas shops and that seems to be what's powering all these kava, K@, tea shops, however you want to label them.

 

[verticity]

That's just it, it's not illegal to sell it for human consumption. That idea has been pushed on this forum for years but it's not true. Just because it's not regulated by the FDA it doesn't mean it's illegal activity. It becomes illegal when sold for consumption and medical claims are made because at that point it's considered a drug and then the FDA will take action because no herb is FDA approved for treating any medical condition.

Otherwise you're right. The kava "booming" articles are mostly journalist sensationalism. The average American doesn't know what kava or K@ is and could care less. In some areas there is a lot of local consumer interest in exotic teas shops and that seems to be what's powering all these kava, K@, tea shops, however you want to label them.

K@ that is sold for human consumption is regulated by the FDA (because the FDA regulates everything sold for human consumption in this country). The FDA considers K@ to be an unsafe "new dietary ingredient", as it clearly stated in Import Alert 54-15. I don't entirely agree with the characterization as "unsafe", and I am against legal restrictions on K@. However the fact is that it is illegal at the Federal level to sell it either as a drug (for obvious reasons), or as a dietary supplement. The law prohibiting it's sale is the US code title 21, section 331 (a) and (v):

"The following acts and the causing thereof are prohibited:
(a) The introduction or delivery for introduction into interstate commerce of any food, drug, device, tobacco product, or cosmetic that is adulterated or misbranded.
...
(v) The introduction or delivery for introduction into interstate commerce of a dietary supplement that is unsafe under section 350b of this title."​

Paragraph (a) covers the case when it is considered as a drug (hence any products containing it are considered adulterated with an unapproved drug). Paragraph (v) covers the case of a supplement containing an ingredient that is considered unsafe. All possible modes of selling it for human consumption are technically illegal according to the letter of the law as far as I can tell, despite the fact that the government seems to have listened to the overwhelming public sentiment against enforcement.

The above legal reasoning is detailed in the FDA's replies to K@ sellers who have sent them the required premarket notification to try to sell K@ as a new dietary ingredient. For example here in 2015: https://www.regulations.gov/document?D=FDA-2015-S-0023-0085 and again in 2018: https://www.regulations.gov/document?D=FDA-2018-S-0023-0067

The only conceivable loophole for a K@ seller to try to comply with the letter of the law is to claim that they are not really selling it for human consumption, in which case it would not be regulated by the FDA at all. And I suppose at the level of a small K@/kava bar, a seller could also claim that a local sale has nothing to do with interstate commerce and that Federal laws shouldn't apply. Obviously there is another famous case of a plant that is illegal federally yet allowed in certain states..

 

[KavaKavaJava]

Folks I didnt mean to start an argument. More or less I'm just dreaming of opening up a strict Kava bar or establishment. I actually use K@ myself due to severe back pains from an accident I was in. I refuse to use pharmaceutical drugs that are constantly pushed on me.

If I go to a Kava bar I expect to be sold a Kava drink not a damn K@ drink that they push.

 

[Kojo Douglas]

I’d say the interest in Kava is probably bigger than a lot of people expect. I get anywhere from 15-20 emails per day, and my website gets twice the traffic that it did just a couple of years ago.

For the K@ issue, I agree with Henry that this has been discussed ad nauseum. There is an unfortunate historical connection between K@ and Kava as “legal highs” in the US.

 

[SelfBiasResistor]

K@ that is sold for human consumption is regulated by the FDA (because the FDA regulates everything sold for human consumption in this country). The FDA considers K@ to be an unsafe "new dietary ingredient", as it clearly stated in Import Alert 54-15. I don't entirely agree with the characterization as "unsafe", and I am against legal restrictions on K@. However the fact is that it is illegal at the Federal level to sell it either as a drug (for obvious reasons), or as a dietary supplement. The law prohibiting it's sale is the US code title 21, section 331 (a) and (v):

"The following acts and the causing thereof are prohibited:
(a) The introduction or delivery for introduction into interstate commerce of any food, drug, device, tobacco product, or cosmetic that is adulterated or misbranded.
...
(v) The introduction or delivery for introduction into interstate commerce of a dietary supplement that is unsafe under section 350b of this title."​

Paragraph (a) covers the case when it is considered as a drug (hence any products containing it are considered adulterated with an unapproved drug). Paragraph (v) covers the case of a supplement containing an ingredient that is considered unsafe. All possible modes of selling it for human consumption are technically illegal according to the letter of the law as far as I can tell, despite the fact that the government seems to have listened to the overwhelming public sentiment against enforcement.

The above legal reasoning is detailed in the FDA's replies to K@ sellers who have sent them the required premarket notification to try to sell K@ as a new dietary ingredient. For example here in 2015: https://www.regulations.gov/document?D=FDA-2015-S-0023-0085 and again in 2018: https://www.regulations.gov/document?D=FDA-2018-S-0023-0067

The only conceivable loophole for a K@ seller to try to comply with the letter of the law is to claim that they are not really selling it for human consumption, in which case it would not be regulated by the FDA at all. And I suppose at the level of a small K@/kava bar, a seller could also claim that a local sale has nothing to do with interstate commerce and that Federal laws shouldn't apply. Obviously there is another famous case of a plant that is illegal federally yet allowed in certain states..

The FDA has certainly botched their handling of this situation in more ways than one. They can't outlaw the ingredient but they have created rules that aren't going to be enforceable. They are only taking action against vendors selling for consumption who are found in violation of other rules like contamination, labeling, etc. For years certain people have been pushing the idea to forum members that K@ must be sold under the counter like a street drug and that is just not true. Especially when K@ products are available at gas stations (poor quality and to be avoided), herb/cbd wellness shops and other businesses out in the open. Also the AKA also has a gmp program with vendors selling specifically for consumption and some states have passed K@ acts to protect consumer access and begin a framework for regulation to ensure products are not adulterated, listing MG/7HM content, etc which is very similar to the path cannabis has taken.

As for not for human consumption, most vendors who have sold under that label are moving away and just selling a raw botanical or listing no intention of use. The FDA has taken action against at least one bodybuilding supplement maker who used NFHC on their label and the FDA has stated recently that they will judge consumption intent based on user comments in reviews, forums and other mediums. Listing NFHC and having the FDA determine that is not the true intent will run the risk of labeling violations and removal from the market. The FDAs careless and unethical behavior has caused problems for a lot of people and it's unacceptable that we have a regulatory agency trying to destroy an industry considering the consequences (people with dire medical needs not being helped by the medical system, opioid epidemic, etc). They should be focusing more on the many ineffective and dangerous pharmaceuticals that they've approved and are causing harm to tens of thousands of people every year, not taking safe and effective medicine away from sick people.

Another thing I've been noticing is some of the bars are selling CBD or mixing CBD extracts into kava drinks. Where is the outrage there? Depending on the source of the CBD, it could contain more THC than sellers or buyers are aware or if it's from poorly grown low resin industrial hemp with pesticides drinkers could be exposed to some very toxic pesticides, herbicides, metals, etc. The CBD industry has hardly any regulations or oversight and per the FDA, it is also illegal for CBD added to food or supplements to be put into interstate commerce much like K@, as pointed out above. These CBD extract infused drinks are also not sold "under the counter".

 

[bogmonkey]

I'm also in the Tampa Bay area - howdy brethren!
There are SO MANY "bunk" kava bars it's unreal. I tend to avoid most of them. It's easy to spot the fakers.
I mostly make my own kava at home because it's top quality and a fraction of the cost.
Bula Cafe on 5th Ave N is 100% legit, they offer different types of kava and now what "lateral roots" means.
Low Tide in Gulfport is also on the approved list.
If you ask the kava bartender for details about their kava and they cannot answer there's a problem.
If they serve only one kind of kava, there's a problem.
If the primary purpose of the lounge is vaping and K@, there's a problem.
Most of these places are serving trash kava, with a trash vibe. To me it feels like drinking poison when I get fake kava so I generally avoid kava bars.

 

[bogmonkey]

P.S. It would be cool as hell to have a kava circle meetup (where everyone brings a jug of their favorite kava for sharing)
I have not been to Modernesian in Tampa but I now it is a "pure" kava bar and would be a fun place to meetup for a kava circle (though we would have to drink their varieties)