kasa_balavu
Yaqona Dina
Some wonderful news out of Germany
EU Kava Market On
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http://dailypost.vu/news/eu-kava-market-on/article_13ed0774-63e3-5bb0-98ff-50af8330ce0f.html
Edit: This was moved from another thread. kb already posted the text so I'll just leave the Vanuatu Daily Post link here...
Edit: This was moved from another thread. kb already posted the text so I'll just leave the Vanuatu Daily Post link here...
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Hopefully the Germans (and everyone else) will start building giant kava growing warehouses for their supply.
Every time I see good news and positive articles on kava, I just picture the already limited and expensive kava supply on the planet, becoming even more limited and more expensive.
Every time I see good news and positive articles on kava, I just picture the already limited and expensive kava supply on the planet, becoming even more limited and more expensive.
kasa_balavu
Yaqona Dina
Yup, this is great news for the growers (of whom the majority live below the poverty line) but bad news for recreational kava drinkers the world over and for online vendors (who will find their margins squashed even further).
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kasa_balavu
Yaqona Dina
Mandatory monthly liver tests? Really?
verticity
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It's not clear ... the published things I have seen are pretty draconian: prescription only, maximum of 120 mg kavalactones/day, maximum duration of treatment 2 months, weekly liver tests. If that has been dialed back, that would be a good thing...
For example this from 2015:
https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=en&prev=search&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=de&sp=nmt4&u=https://www.pharmazeutische-zeitung.de/index.php?id=57419&usg=ALkJrhhoG9d6qkFKShk1qhiYP736NscuPA
In the US we have this "nutritional supplement" category which is not very strictly regulated, and in NZ it is a food/beverage, but in Germany they appear to be very serious about regulating kava as a drug... Over-regulating I would say..
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kasa_balavu
Yaqona Dina
Unfortunately the person best equipped to fight to have traditional kava approved as a beverage/food in Germany will have no reason to do so. I'm afraid prescription-only is as far as we'll get in that market for now.
SelfBiasResistor
Persist for Resistance!
Don't forget about people around the world benefiting in a medicinal way that don't want the farmers to be in a bad position but also need quality dried root at reasonable prices.
I don't really care how much they charge, as long as it is effective. It's been a while since I've felt enough effects that I would really call it recreational (for more than a matter of minutes). At this point I feel like I'm wasting too much money just for the hope that I'll get what I used to get from it (both as medicine and recreation). Just a few years ago, I could order from most vendors and almost always feel like I got a quality product, it's not that way now and I'm hoping it doesn't get worse.
verticity
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Speaking as a recreational/medicinal drinker and as someone who buys a lot of kava from online vendors, and also as someone who is not a big fan of kava extract products and pills, I'm nonetheless OK with this. I want the kava farmers to prosper, because if they do, the whole kava business will benefit. The ruling in Germany might help a little with that by opening up another market, however restricted. But it's real value is symbolic. For years people have been using the German kava ban as a justification for skepticism about kava's health effects. Now when people say "Kava will kill your liver yada yada; they banned it in Germany because of that", we can reply: "Hey, Germany realized they made a mistake and unbanned it.." Germany has a reputation for being very meticulous and scientific. That reputation seems a bit silly in the case of kava considering how they have screwed it up, but this ruling will still carry a lot of weight. Possibly it could lead to loosening of restrictions in other European countries or Australia, eventually. So a lot of people are going to be buying more kava, not just German pharmaceutical companies. All vendors can benefit from kava's improved reputation.
Now, in the short term, yes, this might lead to increased prices for us consumers. Kava takes at least 3 years from the time it is planted to get to your shell. But all the news I see is of a kava boom and farmers planting tons of kava right now, so if we are patient, I think we will soon see a lot of growth and eventually prices will come back down. Dr. Schmidt's efforts really have been a good thing for all stakeholders here; we owe him a great deal.
Now, in the short term, yes, this might lead to increased prices for us consumers. Kava takes at least 3 years from the time it is planted to get to your shell. But all the news I see is of a kava boom and farmers planting tons of kava right now, so if we are patient, I think we will soon see a lot of growth and eventually prices will come back down. Dr. Schmidt's efforts really have been a good thing for all stakeholders here; we owe him a great deal.
Krunkie McKrunkface
Kava Connoisseur
in a bigger picture, the issue is one of safe ethnobotanicals that can be used as anti-inflammatories in doses high enough to be effective. Kava might not be the only such plant that can do this. Chagga mushrooms that grow on trees all over Siberia, perhaps? O something else? It might increase the search for such anti-inflammatory ethnobotanicals if price/availability/quality of kava make it no longer practical for consumers.
verticity
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Let me just relate my perspective on this as a long time American kava consumer.
I started drinking kava somewhere around 1996-98. I didn't know it at the time but that corresponded to the first "kava boom". Back then you could buy kava powder and whole dried roots in bulk in health food and "whole foods" type stores in Berkeley, CA, as well as all kinds of extract products and stuff at places like GNC. I don't remember the exact price but it might have been something like $10/pound for the powder. It was great. It was quite helpful for my anxiety issues, which were severe, and it was also enjoyable (despite the fact that I had no idea what I was doing and just tossed and washed the stuff)
Sometime around 2001, however, kava became nearly impossible to find. It was still perfectly legal in the US, but the German ban and FDA advisory had a dramatic effect on my ability to actually obtain any. I remember asking for it at some vitamin store type place and being told "we don't have that anymore; it's way too controversial". I was able to occasionally find a place that would sell it, but I essentially just gave up and stopped using kava between like 2001-2013. I know there were a few online vendors back then, but I was not aware of them at the time. There were no pharmaceutical medications that were both safe and effective for anxiety in my case, so I essentially just suffered with anxiety.
Of course I am very mindful of the fact that "suffering with anxiety" is a lower level problem than not having food and shelter, etc. It's a "first world problem" and nothing compared to what the kava farmers who were driven into poverty--or whose existing poverty was worsened--were going through during this time.
So, now the present day: Kava is readily available. It is expensive, but at least it is available to those who want it, and really the expense is minimal compared to what the cost of an alcohol or drug habit would be. If the prices increase, I'll deal with it; but what I really don't want to have to deal with again is a situation like in 2002 or so when there is almost no kava to be had at any price.
To use an analogy: it's possible that my slice of the pie will get smaller if Germany is allowed to have a slice. But the favorable atmosphere towards pie in general will eventually cause the whole pie to grow. An unfavorable atmosphere could mean no pie for anyone. It's the same analogy that is used in arguments against trade protectionism, and I think it makes sense in this case also.
I started drinking kava somewhere around 1996-98. I didn't know it at the time but that corresponded to the first "kava boom". Back then you could buy kava powder and whole dried roots in bulk in health food and "whole foods" type stores in Berkeley, CA, as well as all kinds of extract products and stuff at places like GNC. I don't remember the exact price but it might have been something like $10/pound for the powder. It was great. It was quite helpful for my anxiety issues, which were severe, and it was also enjoyable (despite the fact that I had no idea what I was doing and just tossed and washed the stuff)
Sometime around 2001, however, kava became nearly impossible to find. It was still perfectly legal in the US, but the German ban and FDA advisory had a dramatic effect on my ability to actually obtain any. I remember asking for it at some vitamin store type place and being told "we don't have that anymore; it's way too controversial". I was able to occasionally find a place that would sell it, but I essentially just gave up and stopped using kava between like 2001-2013. I know there were a few online vendors back then, but I was not aware of them at the time. There were no pharmaceutical medications that were both safe and effective for anxiety in my case, so I essentially just suffered with anxiety.
Of course I am very mindful of the fact that "suffering with anxiety" is a lower level problem than not having food and shelter, etc. It's a "first world problem" and nothing compared to what the kava farmers who were driven into poverty--or whose existing poverty was worsened--were going through during this time.
So, now the present day: Kava is readily available. It is expensive, but at least it is available to those who want it, and really the expense is minimal compared to what the cost of an alcohol or drug habit would be. If the prices increase, I'll deal with it; but what I really don't want to have to deal with again is a situation like in 2002 or so when there is almost no kava to be had at any price.
To use an analogy: it's possible that my slice of the pie will get smaller if Germany is allowed to have a slice. But the favorable atmosphere towards pie in general will eventually cause the whole pie to grow. An unfavorable atmosphere could mean no pie for anyone. It's the same analogy that is used in arguments against trade protectionism, and I think it makes sense in this case also.
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SelfBiasResistor
Persist for Resistance!
I understand what you're saying about the future benefit of an increasingly available market (I don't support any herb being banned anywhere), but I'm more concerned about the kava market never returning to the state that it once was. If sawdust/diluted kava sells well, what will be the incentive to not include fillers and only harvest 5+ year old plants?
verticity
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Well, I have heard the stories about sawdust, etc. in kava sold in grocery stores in New Zealand, but that would seem to be a quality control problem that they need to address. In the US market I don't believe "diluted" kava does sell well. The incentive is simply that people can tell the difference and are willing to pay more for high quality kava than for "mystery waka" (as well as the possibility of government sanctions if anyone were actually caught adding cement or something to kava). One of the very important things that Dr. Schmidt has done is advocate for improved quality controls and testing standards for kava, and I think that played a large part in the German court's ruling. So, you are right that when supplies are scarce and prices are high, as they are now, some producers will try to take shortcuts. But I think the kava industry and governments of both exporting and importing countries take quality control more seriously than before.
SelfBiasResistor
Persist for Resistance!
That's where I've had a problem. I'm buying from quality/trusted vendors and the quality has significantly decreased over the past couple of years (2017 taking a nose dive). I'm not buying from cheap herb suppliers or mystery waka. Most of what I buy has very little effects anymore. There have been a few reliable options that I have gotten good effects from (though, still not as strong as average sessions a few years ago), so I really doubt tolerance is an issue (if it were, we wouldn't discuss reverse tolerance so much). That leads me to believe that the plants are being harvested too early or there is filler material being added -- and with sales continuing to increase, I'm getting very concerned that farmers or vendors will not be willing to invest in longer aged or more pure products.
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