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Front Page of the Vanuatu Daily Post - The End of Kava Exports?

infraredz

BULA!
I surely wouldn't. Also, like I said in that post, there could very well be a very simple and rudimentary test that could be used for detection of FKB using the fact that it's a phenol. I've been corresponding with Dr. Lebot over the past few weeks and have asked him about this.
 

Gourmet Hawaiian Kava

Kava Expert
Kava Vendor
I think not every vendor will want to get there kava tested. That is why I wanted to explain the history of the wild kava and it's journey to the kava we drink today.
The testing that we use to get the individual kavalactones will also show us the flavokavain B, it is the HPLTC, the cost can be from $75 per sample to almost $200 per sample, it depends on where and how many samples you get tested. We already know the levels of the Flavokavain B, it is very low in the Noble kava. aloha.

Chris
 
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infraredz

BULA!
I believe wholeheartedly that the detection of FKB can be done with much less equipment (and therefore cost) than an HPTLC. I'm currently trying to develop a simple paper chromatography test with the supernatant of acetonic extracts of kava. All I need now is to find a good visualizing reagent and it looks like Antimony trichloride is the one I need to visualize the FKB. This kind of thing could be done at home once a methodology is created.

It looks like your image is a chromatogram based on UV spectra?
 

infraredz

BULA!
borogu.png
tudei(Palisi).png

Above are HPTLC chromatograms of Borogu in graph (a) and a known tudei- Palisi in graph (b).

The peaks, from left to right are FKC (1), Y (2), DMY (3), FKA (4), and FKB (5) scanned at 366nm.
 

Gourmet Hawaiian Kava

Kava Expert
Kava Vendor
@infraredz Yes it is on UV spectra and I was thinking of doing the same thing that you are, is it just a simple test that should show some good results. I am also doing the acetone test that Dr Lebot has suggested we use to tell if there is wild kava in a given product, so far all that I have tested have been a light gold in color, I am going to harvest a small amount of Isa to do the test with the tuday kava, it works real well but I think the simple chromatography test you are thinking of will work better. Let me know if it works for you and I will also share my results.
You had mentioned that you were corresponding with Dr Lebot about this, did he give any input on this matter? Aloha.

Chris
 

infraredz

BULA!
@infraredz Yes it is on UV spectra and I was thinking of doing the same thing that you are, is it just a simple test that should show some good results. I am also doing the acetone test that Dr Lebot has suggested we use to tell if there is wild kava in a given product, so far all that I have tested have been a light gold in color, I am going to harvest a small amount of Isa to do the test with the tuday kava, it works real well but I think the simple chromatography test you are thinking of will work better. Let me know if it works for you and I will also share my results.
You had mentioned that you were corresponding with Dr Lebot about this, did he give any input on this matter? Aloha.

Chris
I've done the qualitative test that Lebot outlined and Kapm also performed the same test (found http://www.kavaforums.com/forum/threads/lebot-explains-simple-qualitative-type-test-in-lab.1543/)

However, since the mechanism behind the color difference isn't known as of yet, a more accurate way would be to perform the very same test that Lebot had, but with something simpler like paper chromatography. The chromatography test will need to be run by Lebot though since there are many unknowns that I simply won't have access to once the visualization is performed with the reagent (because I don't have access to Ultraviolet–visible spectroscopy, among other things). I'm trying to compile a methodology for testing simply for the presence of FKB and hopefully Lebot will be able to help refine it, although I just recently e-mailed him and he might be sleeping (or better yet, enjoying some kava!).
 
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Andrew Procyk

Noble Kava
Kava Vendor
When talking to Lebot, he told me with certainty that Koniak is a two-day, and it is found in the same basin where Isa is in PNG. No "good" kavas are found there. As per the Koniak sold by a vendor here, when a sample of it was tested, it did not come back as noble at the Dept. of Ag. in Vanuatu. When I mentioned to Vincent that some were talking of "borderline" two-day, he laughed.. apparently it is like being borderline pregnant.
The variation of ratios of Flavokawains to kavalactones is HUGE in non-noble vs. noble kavas. This is why there is a .3 ratio being proposed for the CODEX, which I support. This is higher than most noble, but not nearly as high as non-noble kavas would contain, and would protect a shipment of a bunch of kava if there was some non-noble matter mixed in with it accidentally, yet still appears to be below the threshold of concern.
 

Andrew Procyk

Noble Kava
Kava Vendor
Based upon how the system works, I wasinformed (by Schmidt, when discussion how to approach the CODEX) f we are to market kava by cultivar (chemotype) then EVERY cultivar sold would be recognized as distinctively different, and require all the rigmarole it takes for something to be considered a "safe food." Essentially, it would create a mess. It is for this reason that the proposal is to do it by the ratios of the contents of kavalactones to Flavokawains. It creates a "class" of safe drinking kava, and all of the different consumable cultivars would be incorporated into it. IF someone were to desire to market it that way, it would likely be "extra" information, but as far as making it a requirement - it would create a much bigger bureaucratic mess than already exists, and we are trying to muddle our way through.
 

Andrew Procyk

Noble Kava
Kava Vendor
Apparently, while it is a particular pidgin term for kava, it does refer to a specific type that Lebot says is either an Isa or Iki (?) cultivar, which are found in the same geographic region of PNG. While Judd says that it is essentially just a branded name based on the pidgin, part of the problem of all of us using the same language, etc. to talk about the same thing. In uncharted waters, it can get pretty confusing. As per something being "borderline," that would only happen with contamination from non-noble biomass. When tested on the molecular level, there is a strong genetic distinction between noble and non-noble kavas, and as I mentioned before, the ratios have a huge disparity. Hopefully, there will be a paper published NEXT MONTH (rubbing hands together) in the American Journal of Botany that will clarify that there are THREE types of kavas. noble, two-day, and another class all together. One of Lebot's students just finished it, and I hope the editors/reviewers consider it worthy of publication, because those on thos forum sure would! Cheers!

~AP
 
D

Deleted User01

Back in the days of yore when islanders were cultivating the Noble varieties, there were probably some troublemakers. Dudes that would go find a wild batch of Tudie Kava so they could get wasted. These guys were probably some of the first "Drug Abusers" ever recorded by mankind. Every culture has them. But every drug that has ever been abused always had a positive use in medicine. Too bad there is no record of this abuse and no record of why Tudie might be medicinal in some cases. None of us will disagree that Tudie is bad and none of us will disagree that PNG Kava is Tudiesh. That horse has been beaten to death and then beaten again. But do these Tudie Kavas have any redeeming value?
 

Andrew Procyk

Noble Kava
Kava Vendor
Judd asked before for a specific level... but dammit.. I can't find his post here or on whatever thread he asked. Nor, do I know how to tag him in a response... but essentially, when I was talking to Dr. Xing, he spoke of a recent, yet-unpublished test done, in-vivo, on hepatotoxicity of FKB in mice. He conducted the experiment at 11mg/kg, less than half of the prior 25mg/kg, which I also understand may not have been done with the purest of test samples.
The 11mg/kg DID reveal hepatotoxicity which he compared to that of acetaminophen (a popular liver-killer.) Additionally, he said that since mice metabolize at a quicker rate than humans, that one could draw the assumption that levels of less than 11mg/kg may cause issues in humans.
According to Lebot, the EU has delayed the kava ban case for 14 years, thinking something would pop in the US, and then they could say SEE! We did the prudent thing after all!" or something to that effect. I also understand that there were a couple cases of liver issues in New Caledonia recently, both having a strong potential to be related to two-day kava. Hell - the folks at Ag. tested 10 samples of nakamals in Port Vila and found that 6 of them were not noble, and prices on the streets have DOUBLED since I was there in August. I don't want to spook anyone, but it appears that there is a shortage of desirable varieties that is going to hit sooner or later. I am hoping it was just lack of shipping from island-to-island due to the cyclones, but things have not dropped or stetted any since. All the best!

~AP
 

Bula Kava House

Portland, OR
Kava Vendor
Kava Bar Owner
@Andrew Procyk Our "Koniak" is NOT the cultivar called Koniak that Dr. Lebot speaks of. We use the term as the pidgin word locals use for all kava in PNG. I may have to change the name if people here and elsewhere assume or try to claim that it is a certain cultivar that it is not. Interesting about the levels of FKB being hepatoxic. So should we say that 11mg/kg. is the limit? Do you think that acetaminophen should be taken off the shelves? I like the idea of establishing an acceptable ratio of kavalactones to flavokawain. Gives us all something specific without basing it on the name of the cultivar. Many kava producing nations not named Vanuatu are not as diligent at specifying and keeping track of the names of all the growing cultivars, so a test with a specific threshold would be helpful and necessary really. If you'd like to talk further about this, please send me an email, I've got some busy days ahead and I may not be too active on the forum. Good luck with your radio appearance.
 
D

Deleted User01

If he walks like a Koniak and spells like a Koniak. Why not just call it PNG? Or "The Kava Formerly Known as Koniak". I have no idea how much you have invested in labeling and such. I always knew it was PNG but I really didn't understand that Lebot was talking about something else. He never said, "Now I'm not talking about the Koniak that Judd sells, I'm talking about that other bad Koniak that is spelled exactly the same way." Is he talking about the one that is Pidgin for "Cognac"? Or is that still PNG lingo? Another question, why do we have to talk so much about Koniak in this thread? Why is the word Koniak being bandied around in every other post? How in the heck did we get from there to here? :banghead:
 

infraredz

BULA!
As per the Koniak sold by a vendor here, when a sample of it was tested, it did not come back as noble at the Dept. of Ag. in Vanuatu.
I think this is why.

If PK's ISA (or ay other ISA/tudei) was talked about as much, I'm sure it would receive the same amount of discussion.
 

kavadude

❦ॐ tanuki tamer
Ah, the ratio of flavokawain to kavalactones is what I wanted to hear. So now we have an objective threshold for this.
 
D

Deleted User01

I think this is why.

If PK's ISA (or ay other ISA/tudei) was talked about as much, I'm sure it would receive the same amount of discussion.
Infraredz old boy, that is my point. Why is this Thread dedicated to Koniak and not all Tudies sold by all vendors. Koniak was not talked about that much until this Thread came along. You remember the old forum where we all bought Koniak and many of use didn't like the after effects. We made good decisions back then and that was the end of that. Ya know, Chiefs Jungle is also PNG. That's all I'm saying. Bye the way, count the number of Tudies on Kavasseurs list of the top 20. There will be a pop quiz in the morning.:D
 

infraredz

BULA!
I think that sadly, due to Judd's (much appreciated) participation on the board, as well as the popularity of Koniak (which is far more than KBR's ISA, PK's ISA, [email protected]'s CJ, etc.) is the reason for this.

I certainly haven't shown any bias toward undue criticism of Koniak, and have only talked objectively (refer to my solvent tincture qualitative test) about Koniak in all of the discussions that have arisen. I think that part of the reason it is "debated" so much is just that, there are people "defending" it. That's much different than a kava widely accepted and openly advertised to be tudei. Refer to my last (or second to last post) re: a member using PK's ISA.

I am only trying to do my part to help keep people informed and, IMO, safe from the dangers of tudei (namely FKB).

Just to put that on this on the record... I don't have anything out for BKH or Judd personally, and I would hate if it came across that way. I mean shit, I still order a lot of kava from BKH and have appreciated Judd's participation here as well as the well-priced, quality, noble kava he sells as well as the excellent customer service. I've even called up the kava bar and asked questions about the various varieties and other questions I had when I was new and the people there were more than helpful.

The reality though, is that Koniak was tested by the Dept. of Agriculture in Vanuatu and came back positive as a tudei. This was done using the very same instrumentation shown in the videos where much of the leading research of kava safety has originated, by people such as Dr. Lebot, who, as said before, literally wrote the book on kava. Each and every tudei, ISA (semantics aside) needs to be avoided. That's just the reality. The other tudeis mentioned above should be avoided and honestly, I'd like to hear from Adil about his input on this whole issue.

I just want kava to have a long and safe future. All this research is another great "positive" property of kava. I love that there are so many dedicated people working to ensure that kava maintains a safe and viable future.
 
D

Deleted User01

Infraredz, what you did was good science and much appreciated by myself and everyone else. I guess I'm tired of talking about one Kava sold by one particular vendor. I asked Chris the other day about another dreaded Kava, ISA. He says very few people grow it because nobody wants it. Well, maybe just a few wild and crazy guys. In fact, I have a small bag of Koniak in my cabinet and I'm pondering its fate as we speak. And I totally agree with you on the safety thing. I think HeadHodge is putting together some safety stuff for the Newbies. I'm pretty sure the rest of don't need any more lectures about Tudie from Lebot or anyone else. But the new guys, maybe ....

P.S. That sample that was tested, that was the one sold by BKH and not the other one that comes from another region, the non PNG one? Is that your understanding?
 

infraredz

BULA!
I'm pretty sure the rest of don't need any more lectures about Tudie from Lebot or anyone else. But the new guys, maybe ....

P.S. That sample that was tested, that was the one sold by BKH and not the other one that comes from another region, the non PNG one? Is that your understanding?
This is the problem. The radical increase in traffic/new users to this site is too much to keep up with when we are informing the newbies through the means of a thread. I will do my part on the "Kava Safety Page" when I have some relief from my course load (spring break is coming). I hope to not only develop a TLC test complete with appropriate visualizing reagent for FKB, but also a sort of systematic review of FKB and tudei with the various information I have access to.

Regarding the sample, according to Andrew, "As per the Koniak sold by a vendor here, when a sample of it was tested, it did not come back as noble at the Dept. of Ag. in Vanuatu.".
I don't know of another vendor here that sells a kava named Koniak so... yes.
 
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