Historical Precedence of Kava Grind for Judd and Adil

[mos3z]

I am curious if there is a history of the size of grind used for kava consumption for the last 3000 years, or was it traditionally only fresh made kava?The reason I am asking is recently Bula Kava House has been doing some incredibly fine grinds, so much so that when I just made a batch of borogu the entire batch went through the fijian strainer without any pulp left. This worries me as it would seem this is pretty much the same as the toss and wash method (where people are adding straight kava powder to water and drinking it without straining.) To me that method would have a possible danger as you are consuming too much of the pulp. After one of our members developed an allergy to kava I have been extremely paranoid about this as my allergies are horrible, i'm allergic to most everything. Kava has been a godsend for me and my ailments so I want to make sure I am doing everything possible to drink safely. To me I would like to drink as close as possible to the traditional methods used. I know ideally fresh kava would be the choice, but is there a history of kava grind sizes for kava that they kept in storage? The original grind from Bula for Boroguru was like wood chips, personally I loved that size but I know some prefer the finer grind.
I would love to hear Judd and Adils feedback on this if they have any knowledge of this.

 

[krunkedout]

I don't know a lot about the ancient kava drinkers and what there preference was, but if I was an ancient kava drinker I would be drinking fresh kava every day

 

[Paradise Kava]

Question is slightly tricky for me. I'll try to answer.

Historically, it was more about bio availability as opposed to fineness of a powder. Besides Fiji and perhaps Tonga, recent powder lovers, mostly all of Polynesia, Melanesia and Micronesia stone pounded fresh kava, and later made it bioavailable by adding hibiscus bark in Pohnpei's case or chewing it to mix with saliva and then straining it thru the hala, palm fiber or coconut fiber, allowing the enzymes to make the kavalactones more available.



Whole Dried kava root is like rock, and takes a lot of energy to turn into powder. An ancient culture would have had difficulty in turning this into powder.



I've gathered from friends that Fijians have been drinking powder for quite a while, since shelf life goes up exponentially and the Fijians somehow prefer powder to fresh.



The Fijian grind is fairly coarse. I personally like a slightly coarse powder unless if its fresh pulp where fineness is ok, and pulp can be caught thru strainers.



Long story short, I have not heard of powders being this fine historically since we did not have the capacity to make them so.

 

[mos3z]

Thanks for replying Adil,

I wasnt trying to put you in a difficult situation where you are judging a competitors product. There are other companies that have made very fine grinds as well, I just gave Bulas powder as an example since Judd is also active in this forum. Bulas kava is definitely one of the top kavas available, Boroguru is currently my favorite kava. I'm just curious if there was a big enough consensus to urge Judd to move back to a more coarse grind. I would hate to see an increase in adverse reactions to kava over a longer period if consuming the pulp isnt traditionally accepted. Kava is such an amazing product that I feel it would be on the safer side to approach its consumption as close to traditional methods as possible. I think I read before that Judd was still trying a couple different grind sizes and thought it would be a good discussion.



I'm curious how everyone else feels.

 

[Vekta]

To be honest I find myself leaning towards a slightly course grind to. Call me a mushy cornball but I like to feel the kava in my hands when I prep. I like to feel that resin and oil. When I get that slightly sticky feeling and see that oil sheen on the water I know I'm doing it right.

 

[Nihilist]

I'd like the option for a courser grind. I liked the way Boroguru used to be.

 

[Buddhacide]

I much prefer a fine grind. Far more gets used. I would suggest a finer stariner bag if you're concerned.

 

[ObiWan]

I have more problems with my stomach when I use micronized powder (like Fu'u). I made the same experience: at the end there is nearly all the powder in the water.

Now I simply strain it a second time in another nylon stocking. Carefully shake the water out of it until there is only powder in the stocking.
Another method would be to strain only once, but with two nylon stockings.
I also tested successfully a silk cloth.

 

[krunkedout]

Lately I've been tossing and washing a bit more, especially with the nambawan. It all started when I had to go somewhere but didn't have time to make a batch of kava so I just threw 3 tbl In a glass of orange juice and went for it. And it was so much stronger that the other method, like so much stronger. However I always worry about what it could be doing to my body, with all that root going in me. For straining I like more chunky grinds like the old boroguru. This new grind is nice and all but I stil prefer the old one.

 

[Ed!]

I prefer finer grinds because I feel like I get more out of it. Why do you think blending before kneading is more effective? You're taking it down from a coarse grind to a finer one.

 

[kl.TylerKTB]

There was a company who claims to have patented the first micronized kava powder which requires no straining. They have various flavors of this microfine material. I've sat and debated them on many occasions about our conflicting points of view on the matter. From my perspective, Kava root is roughly 20% fiber. It doesn't matter how fine you grind the fiber, its still fiber. Metamucil is finely ground, to the point where it dissolves in water and it still cleans your pipes.



On the other hand, it really depends on the type of strainer. Typical fijian strainer bags are pretty coarse in comparison to the 320 mesh silk screen that I use. My silk screen gets EVERYTHING out, if you didn't know any better, you would think its a solid piece of plastic with no holes. I can leave a half gallon sitting in a pitcher for a day in my fridge and the bottom of the pitcher has a negligible amount of sediment.

 

[kl.midas]

I'd prefer a coarser grind too. Not a very coarse grind because those can be difficult to knead, but not so fine that all particles pass right through the strainer. Like others, I'm slightly concerned that preparing ultra fine kava this way might mean that some things that should be filtered out end up being consumed.

 

[kl.ImSoCold2323]

BKH's (temporary) switch to fine grinds prompted a similar thread from me while back:http://kavalounge.yuku.com/topic/890

Really not a fan of the fine stuff.  I even get better effects from the coarse grind.  I find it easier to get the oily goodness out of it, rather than just swallowing a bunch of small particles of root, hoping that the side effects don't bother me.
I wonder where BKH is in their search for the perfect grind.  I'd really like to get another bag of Boruguru but I really don't want another bag of powder sitting in my cupboard.

 

[mos3z]

Yeah, I agree with imsocold, it actually feels like i can get a stronger kava out of the coarser grinds. To me it feels like i can squeeze them more. When I try to squeeze the finer grind it literally just gets pushed through the strainer, and the fijian strainer I am using is a very tight weave.



Rearding Eds comment, even when I blend kava that is a coarser grind it still doesnt get fine enough to go through my strainer like the micronized poweders do.



I dont know if this is a legit theory or not, but to me it feels like that coarser grinds hold the oils more that you can then squeeze out. When its too fine it feels like i cant squeeze it out.



But my main point behind the post was to reference history and learn from the cultures that have safely used kava for so many years. To me if the traditional use was with a coarse grind then I would like to use a coarse grind, it just seems safer if there is not as much history showing the effects of consuming so much of the fiber from the whole root.

 

[Bula Kava House]

Well let's see. Where to begin. First off, I'm a Haole who fell in love with Hawaiian and south pacific culture which led me to kava. It is not a part of my culture, but is one I have researched and respect.



Kava history started in Vanuatu where they have always almost exclusively used fresh root to make kava. Contrary to popular belief, chewing the rootstock was not a universal practice. In Vanuatu especially, most kava root was ground using a piece of dead coral before water was strained through it, as far as I understand. Ground kava from Vanuatu has always been for export based on its shelf life, so it's a relatively new practice. Grinds vary from supplier to supplier.



Fijians, Tongans, and Samoans have been drying and grinding their kava for quite a while. It tends to be coarser than say, our Fu'u, but not a super coarse grind like our old Boroguru. Part of the reason it was traditionally pretty coarse was because they didn't have the machinery to grind it finely.



In the end, understand that grinding kava on a bulk scale takes expensive equipment. The price and time it takes to grind the kava increases exponentially with a finer grind.



As for our grinds, we probably get an equal percentage of customers who like very fine grinds as we do that like very coarse grinds. We don't want to go back to a very coarse grind like what we had before because you can't fully saturate and extract kavalactones as well. Also, a little muddiness is a good thing in my opinion. We've noticed with our kava bar customers that the drink is more potent with the new grind, but straining it is a bitch for my employees. That being said, we are still searching for the perfect middle ground. I feel that middle ground is slightly more coarse than what we have at the moment, where kavalactone extraction is still easy, but straining is also a little easier. I have a shipment on the way that may be just where I want it.



Don't worry about ingesting root fiber. There is no reason to assume that would be unhealthy in any way. Even toss and wash is totally safe with quality root. In fact, there is a very successful kava man in Vanuatu who told and showed me that with dry root kava one should TRY to push as much powder as possible through a screen during straining. If you'd rather strain out more of the root try a different strainer like a nylon or even a thin t shirt.

 

[Vekta]

Yeah, I think I have to agree with that Judd. Course but not too course. Fine but not too fine. We appreciate your input. When you put it that way we see why you're changing it up. Trial and trial. (no error...not really) I have a new bag of the boroguru so I'm giving it an honest try.

 

[mos3z]

Hey Judd,



Thanks for the response. That's interesting to hear, I had never heard that about ingesting root fiber before.

I guess I've just gotten more concerned because of the various problems people have had doing the toss and wash method. But it's good to hear that from a Vanuatu kava guy.