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In vitro hepatotoxicity of kava extract: noble vs. tudei and acetone vs. ethanol

verticity

I'm interested in things
This a a poster presented by Dr. Schmidt in 2006 that summarizes the findings of in-vitro toxicity by kava extracts. This is relevant to both our recent "liver" and "tudei" discussions here...

It is important to note that these findings are for solvent extracts, not for kava traditionally prepared with water, and they are in vitro (in a test tube) experiments, not tests of living animals or humans.

In short, he found neither noble nor tudei kava extract showed signs of toxicity at physiologically relevant dosages. However at somewhat higher concentrations than would be consumed, he found "borderline" indications of toxicity for tudei extract. Also the comparison of acetonic vs. ethanolic extracts showed that acetonic extracts showed greater indication of potential toxicity, for both noble and tudei, again at somewhat higher than physiological doses, however ethanol (alcohol) extracts of noble kava showed no toxicity whatsoever. Also he found evidence on one indicator that extract from tudei peelings might be marginally more toxic than the root extract.

Table summarizing results. Items in yellow are "borderline" indicators of toxicity. "NR" and "NP": Noble roots and peelings, "TR", "TP": Tudei roots and peelings. Note in this table that in general larger numbers are "good" and lower numbers are "bad"

table3.png


Quote:
"No toxicity could be found for regular kava qualities (roots from noble kava). Otherwise the relative toxicity was as expected from experience in traditional use:
Noble kava, roots < Noble kava, peelings ≤ Tudei kava, roots ≈ Tudei kava, peelings.
..
In all test models used the test results were far above relevant dose ranges, with the exception of some borderline results for peelings from Tudei kava and ATP assays with acetonic extracts from noble kava.

Conclusions:
No liver cell toxicity in a relevant dosage range could be detected for standardized ethanolic and acetonic kava extracts prepared from cultivars acceptable for daily kava drinking in the South Pacific. However, the possibility of toxicity induced by chronic ingestion of Tudei kava still needs to be addressed in vivo."
 

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sɥɐʞɐs

Avg. Dosage: 8 Tbsp. (58g)
Review Maestro
Science and honesty, good post. Can we contact Schmidt and let him know I'm available for extreme in-vivo testing?

For the sake of clarity, does the term peelings refer to the bark of the roots? And do we know if the 'root' results were with the peelings (bark) still intact or with the bark removed, to do the separate 'peelings' test with?
 

verticity

I'm interested in things
Science and honesty, good post. Can we contact Schmidt and let him know I'm available for extreme in-vivo testing?

For the sake of clarity, does the term peelings refer to the bark of the roots? And do we know if the 'root' results were with the peelings (bark) still intact or with the bark removed, to do the separate 'peelings' test with?
I'm pretty sure "peelings" means the peelings from the above-ground stems.
 

sɥɐʞɐs

Avg. Dosage: 8 Tbsp. (58g)
Review Maestro
I'm pretty sure "peelings" means the peelings from the above-ground stems.
Or that.

I've heard of peeling the stems and using the insides but discarding the stem peelings. Some preparations of kava (in Vanuatu) do involve peeling most of the bark off the roots too though. This might not be pertinent to this thread, but is there info about how peeled stems compare to stem peelings and both to roots?
 

verticity

I'm interested in things
So an interesting question raised by this is if tudei (and acetonic noble) extract can show in vivo toxicity at somewhat higher than relevant doses, how big of an "overdose" would one have to take for the results to become "relevant"?
 

verticity

I'm interested in things
Or that.

I've heard of peeling the stems and using the insides but discarding the stem peelings. This might not be pertinent to this thread, but is there info about how peeled stems compare to stem peelings and both to roots?
"Stem peelings" seems to be a thing for some reason. (Actually Table 2 of that pdf uses the phrase "stem peelings") There is evidence that both chlorophyll and pipermethystine are very low or absent in the peeled stems. I have been told that it is somewhat common for kava producers to peel the stems and put the peeled stems in with the roots. It is basically undetectable because all the chlorophyll is in the peelings. I think the main effect is just to dilute the roots...
 

sɥɐʞɐs

Avg. Dosage: 8 Tbsp. (58g)
Review Maestro
So an interesting question raised by this is if tudei (and acetonic noble) extract can show in vivo toxicity at somewhat higher than relevant doses, how big of an "overdose" would one have to take for the results to become "relevant"?
I also wonder, if one could somehow consume the necessary quantities to make the toxicity 'relevant', would it still only be attainable by chronic consumption or does it reach a level where accute toxicity actually becomes a possibility.
 

verticity

I'm interested in things
I also wonder, if one could somehow consume the necessary quantities to make the toxicity 'relevant', would it still only be attainable by chronic consumption or does it reach a level where accute toxicity actually becomes a possibility.
This study used tests of acute toxicity. So presumably if you got the concentrations high enough in your blood stream the results would become "relevant", regardless of whether consumption was chronic or due to a single massive dose. Of course it's important to note that this does not prove that damage would happen in a living person, because in a living organism, all the body's homeostatic defense mechanisms would kick in to try to prevent damage, which doesn't happen in a test tube...
 

verticity

I'm interested in things
I believe this refers to stump peelings,as otherwise he would have to control for pm's toxicity
Table 2 actually specifically says it is stem peelings. He did find slightly higher, but not really significant, toxicity, for stem peelings vs. root. The "control" in this case would be the roots. This does not mean that pipermethystine is not toxic, just that the levels in these extracts is low enough that it does not add much to the toxicity.
 

verticity

I'm interested in things
Here's another paper by Schmidt, specifically about pipermethystine. According to this, PM is present in stem peelings at 0.023%, and 0.2-2.4% in leaves (and only "trace amounts" in the roots), but he couldn't detect any of it via GC/MS in any of the extracts, even in ones made from stem peelings. This doesn't mean there isn't any, just that it is below the detection limit of that technique. But he concludes that there wasn't nearly enough PM to do anything in the actual suspect European extracts.

On the other hand, since there are much higher levels of PM in the leaves, if you made a leaf extract, it would potentially be very toxic...
 

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Blacksheard90

Kava Curious
Has anyone here ever tried making a kava tincture with 80-100 proof vodka? Or maybe even making a tincture and then air drying it in a Pyrex dish to evaporate off the alcohol/water and make a dry extract? I've done it before with tons of other herbs, but had always heard something about some (less desirable maybe) kavalactones being more soluble than others in alcohol, so the end product ends up with kavalactones in a ratio different than the root one started out with....like would a vodka/alcohol extraction change the chemotype of say a 463251 noble to some other numbers based on some kavalactones dissolving better than others?
 

verticity

I'm interested in things
Has anyone here ever tried making a kava tincture with 80-100 proof vodka? Or maybe even making a tincture and then air drying it in a Pyrex dish to evaporate off the alcohol/water and make a dry extract? I've done it before with tons of other herbs, but had always heard something about some (less desirable maybe) kavalactones being more soluble than others in alcohol, so the end product ends up with kavalactones in a ratio different than the root one started out with....like would a vodka/alcohol extraction change the chemotype of say a 463251 noble to some other numbers based on some kavalactones dissolving better than others?
@Mrbinx69 has done that. KLs are all very soluble in alcohol. It should extract nearly all of them. The standard method for measuring chemotypes uses methanol, which obviously you shouldn't use for human consumption, but ethanol should have a similar efficiency. There was a study by Xuan that showed some kavalactones were missing with certain solvents, but I think that study was not accurate because it used GC/MS with high temperature that destroyed the methysticin and other things.

If you do that you should use a mixture of alcohol and water to extract the water soluble components like glutathione which might be important. i.e. don't use pure or 200 proof alcohol.. so vodka would be good
 

Zac Imiola (Herbalist)

Kava Connoisseur
Make it like a tincture . dont think of it as a crazy extract and do wierd shit or thats what youll get is wierd shit like the chinese make.

50 percent alcohol maybe even 30 would be appropriate. Use an ounce of kava to 2 ounces alchol. And let sit for 2 weeks. Maybe less with kava . then try a dropper full aka a Ml or two and see how you feel it should feel like a kava candy.

On the easier side . and its fresh kava! Herbpharm sells a fresh kava tincture already made probrably 1 to 5 ratio in 60 alcohol since its fresh you need higher alc content to account for water content.
 

verticity

I'm interested in things
Make it like a tincture . dont think of it as a crazy extract and do wierd shit or thats what youll get is wierd shit like the chinese make.

50 percent alcohol maybe even 30 would be appropriate. Use an ounce of kava to 2 ounces alchol. And let sit for 2 weeks. Maybe less with kava . then try a dropper full aka a Ml or two and see how you feel it should feel like a kava candy.

On the easier side . and its fresh kava! Herbpharm sells a fresh kava tincture already made probrably 1 to 5 ratio in 60 alcohol since its fresh you need higher alc content to account for water content.
IMO, the most important factor to avoid ending up with "weird shit" is simply to choose high quality noble root as the starting material :)
 
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