Kava and The Benz...

[Kravatomill]

Hi all, this will be my first post, it might be a little long since it's a copy+paste post from myself on the old forum, but some nice guys there told me to turn here for more specific answered, so here goes:

Well, I probably know the answer from most of you. Benzo is shit, Xanax is a killer etc etc... Yes, I am fully aware of that..
However, against all that knowledge of mine I like them for specific situation (e.g. Flying, long train rides when uncomfy sleep is needed etc), they work better than Kava for me in these settings.
Kava has a completely different place at my heart. Although I do look upon all plants as medicines, I do not look upon Kava as a medicine in the western way of thinking about "medicines".
I would put it more together with the group called "Entheogens", although the effects are profoundly different from that of traditional entheogens I find it "gives" me more than a medicine does, at least in the way we tend to speak about medicines.. I guess you guys know what I mean? It is a spiritual cleaner for me...

So.. Here's my story, no judgmental comments pls. I'm good at judging myself already.
I bought some klonopin and Xanax for later use, the amount became bigger than I planed (about 80 klonopin 2mg and perhaps 130mg Xanax, of which 100 are in floating form (1ml = 1mg)
After that I couldn't hold my horses back, and I went in for a 1,5 long week play around with the relaxants. The weekends the dosages went up, but at work I would say to myself "No benzos today.. Then after my boss being an ass and I got in bad mood I decided "heck with it, 1mg of Xanax won't kill me), and sure as well it didn't, in fact, I feel no tolerance to it cause it hasn't been that long.

But yersterday I said "no more, this will be a "white week", if not a "white 3 months" (unless as supplement to cure hangover of course, there is no better than klonopin for that)...
Well. I'm a K@ head, that's what I've been doing everyday for the past 5-6 years now. Unless the time I spend in Asia, where I usually do nothing, go for Kava, or jump over to Tramadol (we speak really low doses, 50mg/day for restless-leg syndrome which is all I get from my "abuse"...

Now to the real question, today was the beginning of my white week, but my character ain't the best. Or well, if it need to be it is, I'm sure I could CT anything if I really needed, but it's more a "damage" I gor from the "green period" in my life, when smoking everyday after work became a habbit. I did end the habbit without any real reason, but I did however exchange it to whatever is available. Usually mild things (K@, Kava, Chamomille etc). I have no physical adddiction to speak of, only the constant feeling of wanting something after work, and so far the benzos ain't doing me harm, but a couple of weeks more and they will, I know that, thats why I decided to save them for what they where supposed to in the first place..

Ok, I still haven't gotten to the point... The point is I took about 2-3mg of Alprazolam when I got home today, in floating form, so not really sure if it was 2 or 3. Can't say I feel it, my fingers seems to tell a different story, since this simple message seems to become a book about my life more or less..
So, hands down, how safe would you say mixing in Kava is?
I've done huge amounts of Xanax with alcohol, stupid? oh yes... But that has nothing to do with it, the thing is I want to restart my Kava sessions, today it might be with Alpra, but tomorrow it will be stand alone...
Have you ever heard any risks? I know there is risk mixing everything, but I speak of real risks, it's not like Morphine and benzos we speaking.
But a mild root that will calm my mind. And I have never heard of respiratory depression from Kava? Guess that's what I fear the most?

To be frank. I would suspect the mix of benzo and alcohol is way more dangerous, but I want to hear with you guys who has years of knowledge. I don't want to know that it might endanger my liver in the long run blablabla, we are not speaking about the long run, we are speaking about here and now.
To be honest I had 2 cups of Vanuatu 3 before even writing to you (I guess that's partly reason why I keep on writting a book instead of a message)
Should I be worried?
I feel like I should not be worried, Iäve done really stupid things in the past (lets say Subutex with large amounts of benzoes etc. Today I'm more or less grown up (29), and feel more responsible and wouln't do anything without research. But research on this subject is hard. Most say its great.
One guy (one..) say he heard of some people mixing xanax and kava and ended up in hospital, that must have been some god damn strong Kava, or huge amounts of benzoes...

Well, I will stay on these 2 cups for the next 40 minutes or so, and then I might have another one, unless someone of you say "NO! The MAOI effects of Kava will kill you!", but the MAOI effects of kava are to be compared with those of blackberries, not Syrian rue we're talking about.. I can eat a bunch-load of Chocolate and cheese after a good session without any negative side effects.

I know the moral of the story "Stay the hell away from benzos!", yesyes, that day will come, tomorrow it seems.
But today wasn't the day. Doesn't mean I give up.
I had no reason to take it, no cravings, no real will, just nothing better to do so I did it... That's how I work...

Ok, to make a extremely long mail about everything except the subject short - how dangerous is the combo in small doses?
That's about it folks.
I wish you all a happy afternoon/evening/night/day or whatever it might be at your place, here it's 22:00 soon. Time for some Polynesian music and feel the cold of the numbening in my hands spread

 

[Vekta]

How dangerous is it is a good question. I haven't read anything that spells that out in the 2-or-so years I've been apart of the kava community online.

What I am aware of is that kava, in some ways, acts similar on the brain as some prescription medications do. How exactly is another question all together and one we...sort of...have an answer for. (sort of...I think)

In a nutshell, it's probably not a good idea. Its possible they could do something weird (and/or bad). How dangerous is it? I would err on the side of caution and assume (for myself at least) that it's at least as dangerous as mixing those with alcohol. I know of at least on person (an aunt of a former friend) that did this. Nothing bad happened to her....that one time she did it. But really, overall it's not the best idea. I don't know about you but didn't really have that much fun when I was at the Vegas strip. Pretty waitresses though...

 

[infraredz]

Welcome here. We aren't here to pass judgement on you or tell you how to live your life. The only thing we ask is for people to be kind to each other and to keep it kava-related (which you did, so thanks).

I worry that "liquid form" might be a euphemism for solution intended for injection, in which case anything that follows is going to be more significant (if not, then disregard that sentence, I just rarely hear of it in oral solution). There are significant reasons to worry about the combination of benzodiazepines and kava. I don't have the time today to get in depth with all of them and the specifics, but kava is a potent inhibitor of several prominent CYP enzymes (2D6 at 73% and 3A4 at 78% for the most 2 common, alprazolam being the latter). Therefore, while there isn't significant respiratory depression or potent GABAergic effects from kava alone, there is more than enough reason to worry about the serum levels of the alprazolam (as well as the increased load on the liver) being significant in a toxicological manner.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8967683
Here is what he was most likely referring to. ^

 

[sɥɐʞɐs]

Unfortunately since Kava isn't really considered a legit western medicine, there's hardly any good science done on it. And like-wise, since such a relatively small group of people use it, it's also hard to find much anecdotal evidence/answers for specific questions amoung the community. Especially ones that pertain to more than just Kava consumption on it own.
Like Infraredz mentioned, It's suspected that the enzyme inhibition would greatly increase the toxicity of Benzos and other substances. For example, a drug that has a "safe" level of toxicity when taken on it's own would become much more toxic and dangerous while under the influence of Kava. Also, in general, combining sedatives/hypnotics is typically not safe. Depending on dosages, it could easily lead to uncontrollable sedation and black-outs. From what I've read on various forums I've seen a few varying reports of people's personal experiences. Ranging from people saying they've occassionally used small amounts of Kava with Benzos and not noticed any problems or only noticed increased relaxation...to some people saying they blacked out, passed out without being able to be awakened or ended up semi-comatose.
So, honestly it just doesn't seem safe to me. Especially since there just Isn't enough science and experience out there to say for sure. I think kava should be used more as a replacement for more dangerous and addictive substances and not as a potentiator. If you're on benzos you should probably just stay on benzos. If you wanna switch to Kava, you should probably taper yourself off the benzos and then switch to Kava. It also helps the Kava community out if we don't have people out there getting in trouble or ending up in the hospital due to mixing things with Kava. We'll end up with a Kava ban and that's no good for anyone
I had an exerpience recently that made me seriously question the safety of mixing. This was in regards to a long weekend of drinking alcohol and switching back to Kava without taking any break in between. The end result gave me a bit of a fright, assuming it wasn't just an unrelated coincidence.
But anyway, to answer your question more specifically. I think you could get away with mixing small doses, rarely, and get away with it without much damage. However, I wouldn't say 3MGs of Xanax and 2-3 Cups of Kava is a small combo. But hey, for the sake of science. If you do find yourself doing this anyway and you run into any health problems down the road. Please come back and share the info with us.

 

[infraredz]

It also helps the Kava community out if we don't have people out there getting in trouble or ending up in the hospital due to mixing things with Kava. We'll end up with a Kava ban and that's no good for anyone

But anyway, to answer your question more specifically. I think you could get away with mixing small doses, rarely, and get away with it without much damage. However, I wouldn't say 3MGs of Xanax and 2-3 Cups of Kava is a small combo. But hey, for the sake of science. If you do find yourself doing this anyway and you run into any health problems down the road. Please come back and share the info with us.

I think these are very important points that should be reiterated. The first point addresses one of the many reasons we try to keep discussion to kava exclusively. The image of kava is incredibly delicate right now, and I imagine it will continue to be for a significant amount of time as it grows in popularity. The longer we can have a period of established safe usage, the better it will do in the long-run. When it becomes something that is being associated with poly-substance abuse/use or concurrent use of illegal drugs, the image will likely suffer as a result and that's not only harmful to the people that use it themselves, but for a vast amount of Oceania and the far-reaches of the industry as a whole. I'm only saying this because I believe my above statement needed an explanation and to clarify things so you know where we are coming from.

 

[Kravatomill]

Welcome here. We aren't here to pass judgement on you or tell you how to live your life. The only thing we ask is for people to be kind to each other and to keep it kava-related (which you did, so thanks).

I worry that "liquid form" might be a euphemism for solution intended for injection, in which case anything that follows is going to be more significant (if not, then disregard that sentence, I just rarely hear of it in oral solution). There are significant reasons to worry about the combination of benzodiazepines and kava. I don't have the time today to get in depth with all of them and the specifics, but kava is a potent inhibitor of several prominent CYP enzymes (2D6 at 73% and 3A4 at 78% for the most 2 common, alprazolam being the latter). Therefore, while there isn't significant respiratory depression or potent GABAergic effects from kava alone, there is more than enough reason to worry about the serum levels of the alprazolam (as well as the increased load on the liver) being significant in a toxicological manner.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8967683
Here is what he was most likely referring to. ^

Nono, The thing was I got 100mg pure powder, didnt know what to do with it, so disolved it in Propylene Glycol, THat's why it's liquid. I would nevet stick anything into my arms

 

[Kravatomill]

Unfortunately since Kava isn't really considered a legit western medicine, there's hardly any good science done on it. And like-wise, since such a relatively small group of people use it, it's also hard to find much anecdotal evidence/answers for specific questions amoung the community. Especially ones that pertain to more than just Kava consumption on it own.
Like Infraredz mentioned, It's suspected that the enzyme inhibition would greatly increase the toxicity of Benzos and other substances. For example, a drug that has a "safe" level of toxicity when taken on it's own would become much more toxic and dangerous while under the influence of Kava. Also, in general, combining sedatives/hypnotics is typically not safe. Depending on dosages, it could easily lead to uncontrollable sedation and black-outs. From what I've read on various forums I've seen a few varying reports of people's personal experiences. Ranging from people saying they've occassionally used small amounts of Kava with Benzos and not noticed any problems or only noticed increased relaxation...to some people saying they blacked out, passed out without being able to be awakened or ended up semi-comatose.
So, honestly it just doesn't seem safe to me. Especially since there just Isn't enough science and experience out there to say for sure. I think kava should be used more as a replacement for more dangerous and addictive substances and not as a potentiator. If you're on benzos you should should probably just stay on benzos. If you wanna switch to Kava, you should probably taper yourself off the benzos and then switch to Kava. It also helps the Kava community out if we don't have people out there getting in trouble or ending up in the hospital due to mixing things with Kava. We'll end up with a Kava ban and that's no good for anyone
I had an exerpience recently that made me seriously question the safety of mixing. This was in regards to a long weekend of drinking alcohol and switching back to Kava without taking any break in between. The end result gave me a bit of a fright, assuming it wasn't just an unrelated coincidence.
But anyway, to answer your question more specifically. I think you could get away with mixing small doses, rarely, and get away with it without much damage. However, I wouldn't say 3MGs of Xanax and 2-3 Cups of Kava is a small combo. But hey, for the sake of science. If you do find yourself doing this anyway and you run into any health problems down the road. Please come back and share the info with us.

Well, I do agree with all that you have to say. But then again we all know benzos doesn't really improve your judgement... So I did it.. And yea, I knida passed out, nothing more nothing less. Passed out may sound a bit dramatic. I fell asleep for 4 hours before I was expecting to go to sleep. But this happens on Kava stand alone as well so Idk. benzos is really nothing for me... (So why u eat them someone may ask... Good question, I would answer...)
For me benzos does more or less nothing, they make me sleepy, and that's great for flights etc. But except from that I will stay away from them, now I happened to have to many and too much, so I simply took some, that's why this thread was born in the first place.
But from now on I will stick with roots and only roots (and leaves, since I'm a K@ eater since years back..)

 

[infraredz]

Nono, The thing was I got 100mg pure powder, didnt know what to do with it, so disolved it in Propylene Glycol, THat's why it's liquid. I would nevet stick anything into my arms

Okay good, although I'm a bit concerned because of the statement "The point is I took about 2-3mg of Alprazolam when I got home today, in floating form, so not really sure if it was 2 or 3". With such a high potency medication that has significant toxicological concerns, one must be certain of the dosage they are taking. 3mg is 50% more than 2mg, and that is HUGE in clinical terms.

 

[Kravatomill]

I think these are very important points that should be reiterated. The first point addresses one of the many reasons we try to keep discussion to kava exclusively. The image of kava is incredibly delicate right now, and I imagine it will continue to be for a significant amount of time as it grows in popularity. The longer we can have a period of established safe usage, the better it will do in the long-run. When it becomes something that is being associated with poly-substance abuse/use or concurrent use of illegal drugs, the image will likely suffer as a result and that's not only harmful to the people that use it themselves, but for a vast amount of Oceania and the far-reaches of the industry as a whole. I'm only saying this because I believe my above statement needed an explanation and to clarify things so you know where we are coming from.

I hear you, true words and bula to that!
Let's keep nature and big pharma apart, Kava can't be compared with any -zepam drugs, nor can it be compared with any "drugs" in that matter as well. It is a medicine for the soul. That's my take on it. And I've been around it since 2000, sometimes for weeks in a row, then month's without even thinking of it. It's not a drug you will get "hooked" on. It's not even a substance you can abuse!(?)
I think this plant need all respect it can get.
The culture on Vanuatu, Tonga, Samoa, Fiji etc should be taken seriously, and be listened to, cause they know way more than us about this, since it's been a part of their lives for so many years...

 

[Kravatomill]

Okay good, although I'm a bit concerned because of the statement "The point is I took about 2-3mg of Alprazolam when I got home today, in floating form, so not really sure if it was 2 or 3". With such a high potency medication that has significant toxicological concerns, one must be certain of the dosage they are taking. 3mg is 50% more than 2mg, and that is HUGE in clinical terms.

Yea, that might be true. But to be honest. 2 or 8mg makes no difference on me, and I have no tolerance, I never understood the hype of Alpra, it does absolutely nothing for me. Clona on the other works..

 

[sɥɐʞɐs]

Just a quick word on tolerance. Your perceived tolerance to the effects of a drug does not really make them less damaging as they metabolize inside your body. So even if taking 8mg feels the same as taking 2mg to you, all you've done is incurred all the dangers and damage of a high dose, without even attaining the increased desired effect. And frequent higher dosages of course lead to quicker and harsher withdrawals. One interesting thing I've found out in regard to Benzodiazepines is that Lorazepam a.k.a Ativan seems to be the safest one when it comes to Liver & Kidney function. Apparently, it hardly relies on those organs to metabolize and therefore can still be used on people who already have some liver or kidney issues. ...I haven't done any research on how this could relate to kava at all. But it might be useful knowledge to some.

BTW...I'm not trying to scold you at all, braddah. Just tryin' to put some info out there for harm reduction.

 

[Kravatomill]

Just a quick word on tolerance. Your perceived tolerance to the effects of a drug does not really make them less damaging as they metabolize inside your body. And frequent higher dosages of course lead to quicker and harsher withdrawals. One interesting thing I've found out in regard to Benzodiazepines is that Lorazepam a.k.a Ativan seems to be the safest one when it comes to Liver & Kidney function. Apparently, it hardly relies on those organs to metabolize and therefor can still be used on people who already have some liver or kidney issues. ...I haven't done any research on how this could relate to kava at all. But it might be useful knowledge to some.

True words Shakas. The thing is I never use benzoes. Never is a lie, but lets say I use them on a bing once or twice a year at most, and that's usually in my other home, Thailand, and in form of Diazepam (since Alprazolam does nothing for me, seriously).
I'm not trying to be a HC rockstar here, but 20mg of Diazepam gives me nice relief for a flight and does exactly what I want it to do, even the generic Pakistani copies.
But even 10mg of Alprazolam in Roche form doesn't do much at all. Had idiot evenings when young with loads of Alpra and whiskey. Yes, it made me wobbly, and it made me slurr, but I remember it all perfectly.
NOW, this has nothing to do with toxicity, and I know it was an idiots choice in the beginning. But done is done, and I dont regret it, I just know it won't happen again
4th Shell of Tongan Pride tonight! (here it's 22:30), life is beautiful

 

[Kravatomill]

To reply on myself. I would like to add that Alcohol should be avoided a few days after Kava consumption.
I don't base this on any known facts from my side, except that my neck, cheeks and chin got completely red after a night out, then I had a few shells the day before. It wasn't like 2-3 beers night out, but a 70cl 80 proof night out.
So be careful with that one!
I don't know how it may harm you, but you look like someone on antabus, not that attractive...