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Kava Kava and SSRI's ?

kl.trevorlay

Kava Curious
I am now on an SSRI ( Lexapro ) and I have read not to mix it with kava, I was wondering if any one knew how high the risk was of a bad interaction between the two? or if any one is on an SSRI and still drinks kava if they have had any ill effects. I think its because Kava Kava is a MAO inhibitor and their is risk of serotonin syndrome?

Thanks for any input!
 

kl.jj28west

Kava Curious
Hi,

I have also searched around for this and concluded that it was OK. ST Johns Wort with a SSRI may be a different story with Serotonin Syndrome. The internet is a funny place whre I am more careful what I read. You will get opinions 100% opposite of each other, heck even from Doctors for that matter. What I also have concluded is that Serotonin Syndrome can be overhyped a bit.
jj
 

kl.Krissy

Newbie
Please do not go by what other people say or what you find on the internet regarding this.  Just give your pharmacist a buzz.  You'll get your answer quick and from a reliable source.  They are the experts on medications, herbs etc. 

I actually just called mine yesterday to see if it was safe to take Kava with me current meds.  She did not recommend this because of the CNS (central nervous system) meds that I'm on (I'm on a mood stabilizer, SSRI and sleep aid).  The Kava would also interfere with the medications ability to metabolize properly and would lessen the effects of it. 

Just be informed by an expert, and then do as you wish :).

I hope this helps :).
 
Elizabeth, if you have some time to take a look in your textbooks, I would be very interested to find out a bit more information on this subject.
 

kl.Letharia

Kava Curious
Does anyone know about Kava + SAMe? I currently take 800mg/day. I guess I could ask a pharmacist... I presume it would be okay, but I don't want to die. lol All I could find online was a site saying not to combine Kava with other sedatives, and not to combine SAMe with other serotonergics. I'm guessing there's no overlap, but I'm not an expert.
 

kl.Kava

Kava Curious
SSRI's usually bring more problems. MOST doctors don't know much about SSRI's or even anxiety in general but they will still push the drugs. I used to be on Zoloft. There is an interaction with Kava and SSRI's. I'de stick with kava. Once you become adjusted to the SSRI (3 months or so), it will be really hard to kick. REALLY hard.
 

kl.Gray Owl

Kava Enthusiast
I am not a doctor but think SAMe should be fine, it may boost glutathione levels, which would have the added benefit of protecting the liver. I've been on Pristiq for a couple years, I've tried quitting a few times but my mood is just too unstable without it. I was thinking that kava might help me get off Pristiq, but I'm not there yet.
 

kl.Letharia

Kava Curious
Thanks for the reassurance... I never did have a problem with Kava while taking SAMe... I only took one pill when drinking it though (not ideal for me.) Problem is, SAMe is quite expensive to be taking twice a day, so I might go back to 5-htp. I looked it up on the forums, and some said the combo could be quite mind-altering... I can't find info on it anywhere else though. I wouldn't be taking it at the same time however, and only at a 50mg dose... Still. I assume I'll survive though, so unless I end up asking a pharmacist first I might as well report any new instances of insanity.
 

Paradise Kava

Honolulu, HI
Kava Vendor
Trevor, know you get krunked on kava and it sometimes brings you down just a tiny bit?



How low it brings you depends on the kava and levels of kavain and dihidrokavain within that kava's chemotype profile. (Kavain is euphoric)



From what we understand, kava is suppressing dopamine and working with your serotonin levels.



So people who need SSRI anti depressants need more dopamine and kava is supressing it's flow, in layman terms.



Please be careful in mixing these two.
 

kl.Gray Owl

Kava Enthusiast
Letharia said:
Thanks for the reassurance... I never did have a problem with Kava while taking SAMe... I only took one pill when drinking it though (not ideal for me.) Problem is, SAMe is quite expensive to be taking twice a day, so I might go back to 5-htp. I looked it up on the forums, and some said the combo could be quite mind-altering... I can't find info on it anywhere else though. I wouldn't be taking it at the same time however, and only at a 50mg dose... Still. I assume I'll survive though, so unless I end up asking a pharmacist first I might as well report any new instances of insanity.
If you have prescription coverage, you might ask your doctor about Deplin so you don't have to pay out-of-pocket for SAMe, I still have a copay for Deplin but I think it's less than what I would pay for SAMe, partly because I only need to take it once a day.  Deplin works somewhat differently from SAMe, but can have a similar net effect.  Kava tends to give me unusual--but not necessarily bad--dreams, combined with 5-HTP I would expect that effect to be even more intense.
 

kl.NDG

Kava Enthusiast
Hopefully i can clear up some of the confusion around here. Escitalopram or lexapro is a very clean drug thats action is mostly serotonergic, unlike some other ssris like zoloft/sertraline which has dopamine reuptake inhibition also, or prozac which resembles an snri (norepinephrinergic activity) like pristiq/esvenalfaxine that grey owl is taking.



So, if the question was about ssri's you would have to look at each individual one as the mileage does vary, however, in this case lexapro is the truest selective sri. So how could this interact with kava, well kava has little serotonergic effects, mostly downstream, meaning via the changes in other catecholamines. Kavain is an NRI (like some classical TCA's, think amitryptilline) which would have sedative effects, concentration and focus effects along with some anxiolysis. Also, kava's various lactones have MAO-B inhibition, unlike MAO-A, this means it's mostly dopaminergic (think selegiline). In fact it has been shown to raise dopamine levels in the nucleus accumbens, a area of the brain related to reward and addiction ( in the mesocorticolimbic pathway). Kava's main actions seem to be via calcium channel blockade and sodium blockade to a lesser extent. This has effects on all catecholamines and glutamate (the brains major excititory neurotransmitter). Also, there seems to be no direct gabaergic effects (gaba is the brains major inhibitory nt) but kava inhibits gaba transaminase to some degree, an enzyme which degrades gaba ( similar to the anti-convulsant and mood stabilizer valproic acid). This inhibition would increase gaba levels and thus reduce anxiety, cause sedation, myorelaxation etc.



so with all that being said and the pharmacology of lexapro taken into account, i would say there will be no significant interaction, and any interaction that is suggested is erring on the side of caution, in medicine we combine several serotonergics often, and more so happening at the liver level, ie increasing or decreasing the clearance of the drug. I would suggest taking them at seperate times and for circadian rhythm purposes take lexapro in the morning, but in terms of serotonin syndrome that would be hard to induce with kava's relative lack of 5-HT activity.



hopefully that helps. oh ya this isn't medical advice. sorry for the poor grammar I was in a hurry but wanted to lend a hand.
 

kl.KarmaG

Kava Enthusiast
Good post, NDG. I'm not on any SSRIs but have wondered about combining kanna and kava, as kanna is supposed to have SSRI effects (although the exact mechanism is not yet known). Anyways, very informative. Thanks!
 
Hey guys,



just want to drop my 2 cents regarding this topic.



I've been on SSRI's on and off for about 5 years, untill 3 weeks ago. I trapped out of them slowly, and I started experimenting with kava while on SSRI's. I'm still very green in the world of kava, but i definately fell differences in my kava sessions on and off SSRI's.



While I was on the stupid pills, I think I needed to drink more kava to get an effect. Also the effect was not as desired, maybe because of drinking to much. I got some positive effects, but also got slight anxious and had a hardbeating heart.



While off the pills, I feel waaay more relaxed and mellow after a couple of glasses. None of the above mentioned negative effects. It's given me a stronger lust for drinking kava. It's nice! Glad I'm off them pills, and progressing with this potential wonderfull plant.



Just my personal experience :)



Holla from Turkey!
 

kl.pep

Kava Curious
i'm currently taking a small dose of cipralex 10mg and have been drinking kava nightly. I don't notice too much other than being a bit groggy the next day, and on occasion i've had a panic attack (not while on Kava).

I hope there's no bad long term effects of mixing the two as It's tough to get off the cipralex...i get super dizzy, irritable and depressed but have gone from 20mg down to 10.
 

kl..

Kava Curious
I don't know anything about cipralex, but I'd guess the thing to look for would be serotonin syndrome, which can also happen if you are prescribed a too-high-for-you dose of SSRIs. Someone like NDG or Grey Owl (if he's still around) might be able to give you a better answer though. I hear you about getting off of SSRI's. Before I found kava I had a zoloft prescription that sucked to quit. I told my doctor I wanted off of it and he gave me a two month plan to get off of a med I'd been taking for four months!
 

Prince Philip

Duke of Edinborogu
I don't always quit SSRI's, but when I do, I do it cold turkey.



My metabolism burns through SSRI's in hours. I'm in SSRI withdrawal, or "SSRI cessation syndrome" for the politically correct, by the end of the day. Not at first, but within a fortnight, after I've had some time to develop tolerance.



SSRI's are probably the only thing I agree with Scientologists on. That and the whole Xenu thing.
 
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