Kavain is bad for the Liver??

[Deleted User01]

I was looking for information on Kava and Coffee and found this link. University of Sydney in Australia posted that in 2008. Has that already be rebuked or re-puked. Actually, I'm hitting a bunch of sites that say the same and I think from the same professor. Just google Kava Coffee.

http://www.ehow.com/about_5409909_dangers-kava-coffee.html

 

[TidyMinion]

Articles like this seem to be misleading or at least confusing, probably not intentionally so, but the headline is a bit sensational and they used "coffee" in the description then use a picture of coffee beans. Kinda weird right? Then, by the end of the article they're summing up how Germany repealed their ban and retracted the liver damage reports after reviewing results from "numerous counter studies".

 

[Gourmet Hawaiian Kava]

Hi Deleted User01, I looked at this article and it is worthless, they do not cite any credible references for this and when you look at all the other verified studies that show Kavain and the other kavalactones in noble kava are safe, look at the video I posted about Kava and Cancer, this scientist clearly shows that it is not kavain or any of the other kavalactones that cause the liver damage.
A friend of mine who grows kava and drinks it every day for well over 15 years now, he gets his liver checked every year and his doctor told him his liver is in perfect shape. We have never seen any problems with noble kava or it's ingredients, especially if it is used in the traditional way.
I just do not believe this report at all. Thanks for posting it though, aloha.

Chris

 

[Deleted User01]

thanks Chris. I hate it when I stumble upon misinformation.

 

[CanAwa]

The health Canada warning is just as bad , I'm pretty sure they listed blindness as a side effect if I'm not mistaken .

 

[Buddhacide]

Actually, and I'm sorry I dont have a link, but I did read a study that showed under some conditions kavain can be hepatotoxic. Many of the lactones have shown this in isolation. I'm not saying that this applies to regular use, but I did read the abstract and remember taking note. If I can find the study i'll post it..

 

[Buddhacide]

Here is one I just found, I was actually referring to another one

S. Fu, E. Korkmaz, F. Braet, Q. Ngo, and I. Ramzan,
“Influence of kavain on hepatic ultrastructure,” World Journal
of Gastroenterology, vol. 14, no. 4, pp. 541–546, 2008.
Wherein they concluded

"
Experimental
studies with kavain-perfused rat livers examined via electron
microscopy displayed a disruption of hepatic vasculature
with narrowing of blood vessels, constriction of sinusoidal
4 Advances in Pharmacological Sciences
blood vessels, and retraction of the endothelium compared
to controls [41]. Liver macrophages (Kupffer cells) within
the sinusoids of the kavain-perfused liver also appeared
swollen with large cytoplasmic vacuoles and phagocytosed
material."

Sited in a very interesting Study that outlines a lot of interesting stuff and I'm sure is worth reading in its entirety called "Toxicokinetics of Kava"

 

[kavadude]

It's pretty hard to perfuse your liver with kavain, although I've been trying to.

 

[Buddhacide]

True, but lets not keep any misconceptions either. Kava is very paradoxical in a alot of ways. I dont consider it dangerous either, but these effects are being demonstrated in lab settings. I think there's some merit to the glutathione theory of kava's safety - having tried it in isolation after drinking booze a few times and avoiding serious hangovers.

 

[Chris]

From everything I know. Kava may or may not be "Hepatoxic" (ie: chemical damage to the liver). There is more evidence to support that this could be more an issue with the PNG's which is what most of the studies on rats allude to. Also the whole pharmaceutical debacle that led to the Kava freakout was about improper harvesting of the root to maximize profit. That being said it is worth taking a look at to see? Because people have been drinking kava traditionally for a long time and not had serious liver issues. Is it cultural in terms of diet or genetics or is about production for the west? Also when looking at studies you want to see have the results been replicated? How controlled is the study? and so on.. There is a lot of people who jump on health fads and nutrition hype because of short term non replicated studies and they turn out to be useless. "Low carb"... "Low fat"..
As for the hepatoxicity you can look at it like this.. Kava may or may not be hepatoxic.. Alcohol is hepatoxic.. People don't seem to mind so I wouldn't freak out too much. Kava like anything can be abused however the process the mentality behind traditional kava drinking makes it pretty hard.

 

[infraredz]

Without getting into specifics regarding flaws in the methodology, noble kava, prepared with water has been shown to be safe without any hepatotoxicity concerns. When I mention flaws in the methodology, I'm only referring to our "perspective" which is "Is traditionally prepared noble kava hepatotoxic?". The aim of these studies is always very narrow because that's how research works unless you find a systematic review which is more of a study of a whole bunch of studies. Unfortunately, if one takes this stuff at face value, it can be incredibly misleading.

The first article isn't even really worthy of another response...

 

[Buddhacide]

I dont believe its misleading, it just points to a different set of facts which, yes I suppose can mislead, lol. I agree that kava is safe, but you never know when someone with some sort of medical complication could be affected. I am very weary of treating kava or any other substance with confirmation bias, if not as some sort of religion. I dont think these studies should be discounted as if they are not showing effects. If anything it calls for more theory and exploration. Like I said above kava is a paradox, its safety is not particularly well understood in my opinion.

 

[infraredz]

What I meant was that for the average layperson that doesn't have much knowledge of this sort of thing can be misled to believe that therefore kava is harmful. That's all. The narrow scope of the study, as well as a vastly different methodology than our kava use means that it shouldn't be taken for anything more than specific research regarding perfusing kavain in rat liver.

I'm just trying to give the newbs and/or people without knowing how to interpret this data that kava is indeed, still proven to be non-toxic. Removing your liver, passing a very high amount of kavain through your vena cava then re-collecting it directly after exiting your portal vein, and then repeating that for 2hrs.
That doesn't take into account systemic blood flow, other sites of metabolism, and all sorts of common, important physiological functions. This sort of thing is too narrow, because of all these thing listed, to be applicable to us. For example, a better methodology for our purposes would be to study kavain orally through rats (like how we consume kava, unless there's people using it rectally or IP), use a control like they did, and maybe also test kavain in the presence of glutathione. Drug metabolism is far more complex than the study showed/used, not to mention the IMMENSE amount of factors that would have been needed to accurately determine hepatotoxicity of kava.

This is the only aim of study, as they themselves say: "The aim of this study was to investigate whether the major kavalactone, kavain, induces ultrastructural changes and function of the liver instead of biochemical perturbations." as well as "[...] additional investigations with other kavalactones and their effects on liver are urgently needed."

That is very, very narrow in scope in regards to applying it to our usage of kava. That's all I was saying. That being said, as long as one is able to interpret data like this, it is helpful for the medical community and indeed the kava community as a whole. There are many common herbs that are used in vast amounts for decades that don't have 1/10th of the research that kava does which is, IMO, one of kava's great advantages.

I should have been more clear about how/why I used the word misleading.

 

[brad]

Hi I've just like in the last two days started kava for the first time and have ben reading the blog's here for five days now ty all who make this site possible the kava did nothing short of transformed my life in just 2and
A half days I'm felling better then i have in over 12 years kava has helped me to release that despit the reasons for my life being so hard to the point of not haveing one could be a little bit ok a lot easier with kava wile big companies in various drug industrys would hate my new found frend the kava plant I'm thinking yes kava will be worth my risk of lever damages ..
Today i mad a strong kava uasing milk two hour's shinking and get this i made about two tablespoons of verry potent butter see picture ..

Sent from my LGL35G using Tapatalk 2

 

[Steve T]

The way some individuals talk about kava being hepatoxic is like… "you WILL get liver damage." Even assuming that it is hepatoxic, which it isn't or barely is, it doesn't remotely compare to alcohol, acetaminophen, commonly used prescription drugs, and so forth.

If you can drink like 10 beers in a day which I guess was around my numbers, there is no way that even 1 lb of kava will do that much damage -- and that's assuming the worst. Let's talk about how alcohol and benzos are hepatoxic, and how members here quit these using kava. Or how people use borogoru for pain management instead of opioids and garbage which immediately builds addiction/tolerance and can stop your heart.

Bogus articles. They should allocate the time towards creating ultra kavas with no side effects, like how marijuana progressed from the '80s up until now. Then in 2030 rappers emerging from the east side of Oregon can make gangsta rap about driving electric Cadillacs filled with robotic hoes and sipping "chronic" kava.

 

[Roaddog]

The way some individuals talk about kava being hepatoxic is like… "you WILL get liver damage." Even assuming that it is hepatoxic, which it isn't or barely is, it doesn't remotely compare to alcohol, acetaminophen, commonly used prescription drugs, and so forth.

If you can drink like 10 beers in a day which I guess was around my numbers, there is no way that even 1 lb of kava will do that much damage -- and that's assuming the worst. Let's talk about how alcohol and benzos are hepatoxic, and how members here quit these using kava. .

wow kicking an old thread back up. That's great. This is such an important subject. Yes I agree with you 100%. If I remember correctly Tylenol, was associated in over 40,000 deaths last year in the US. I would say, if kava was so bad, the bodies would be piling up by now. There is a few suspicious cases of kava causing problems with the liver. But I suspect there to be add reasons for this to happen, like consuming the wrong part of the plant, alcohol consumption, Tylenol consumption, moldy or fungus filled kava, due to improper harvesting. The list could be a mile long. Much love. Roaddog....