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Kavalactone chemotype changes after the first wash.

Blinkyrocket

Kava Enthusiast
It's come to mind that Kava's chemotypes might change after the first wash. In my experience, Kava seems to gravitate towards headiness, and less sedation (or at least just less sedation), with each wash after the first one. Although, I'm not an expert on heaviness because, oddly enough what with my anxiety, I don't pay attention to it or desire it particularly. Does anyone else experience a shift in profile of Kava after the first wash?

Also, why don't I have sufficient privileges to post in the "In Depth Kava Discussion" forum? It's fine, but if this thread is meant for that forum, I can't post there so...
 

recentreturn

Kava Enthusiast
It's come to mind that Kava's chemotypes might change after the first wash. In my experience, Kava seems to gravitate towards headiness, and less sedation (or at least just less sedation), with each wash after the first one. Although, I'm not an expert on heaviness because, oddly enough what with my anxiety, I don't pay attention to it or desire it particularly. Does anyone else experience a shift in profile of Kava after the first wash?

Also, why don't I have sufficient privileges to post in the "In Depth Kava Discussion" forum? It's fine, but if this thread is meant for that forum, I can't post there so...
I bet you tried to comment on a closed discussion (one which no one can reply to now).
BTW: I have the same question as you do regarding the second wash.
 

recentreturn

Kava Enthusiast
Hmm, that must've been awhile ago but it sounds a lot like me so I don't doubt that possibility. Lol
Oh, I think I understand your question now. You weren't trying to reply but to post a totally new thread? I don't think it is typical* for a thread to start in the "in depth" area. It usually gets moved there when it drones on and on and on. I had the same confusion. I thought it was for overly detailed or technical discussion. I think it is actually for unending discussions.

*Phrasing intentionally ambiguous, cause I know of one discussion which did start there and haven't tried to start one there myself.
 

Blinkyrocket

Kava Enthusiast
Oh, I think I understand your question now. You weren't trying to reply but to post a totally new thread? I don't think it is typical for a thread to start in the "in depth" area. It usually gets moved there when it drones on and on and on. I had the same confusion. I thought it was for overly detailed or technical discussion. I think it is actually for unending discussions.
Oh, so it's just normal to not have permission to post there. I got it. And yeah, I originally thought to create this thread in that forum because it felt more fitting.
 

kastom_lif

Kava Lover
You have to have a certain number of posts and have been a member for so long before you can post in there. I think the idea is to keep newbies and sockpuppet accounts away from the more controversial discussions.

Anyway, I think you are right about washed kava. It would be interesting to see HPLC results from the same kava after each additional wash.
 
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recentreturn

Kava Enthusiast
You have to have a certain number of posts and have been a member for so long before you can post in there. I think the idea is to keep newbies and sockpuppeg accounts away from the more controversial discussions.

Anyway, I think you are right about washed kava. It would be interesting to see HPLC results from the same kava after each additional wash.
Yeah, but he actually did post a reply in the "in depth" section earlier today/yesterday. Is the policy that you can't reply 'til after a number of posts or you can't post new threads' til after a number of posts? I assumed it was the latter; however when I inquired about why the story about horses being disqualified for have kava in their system was "moved" to the "even further in depth" section, I was told that it started there. And given that @kasa_balavu's name doesn't say moderator on it, its a bit confusing; but all in all not really a big deal to me.
 

kasa_balavu

Yaqona Dina
I assumed it was the latter; however when I inquired about why the story about horses being disqualified for have kava in their system was "moved" to the "even further in depth" section, I was told that it started there. And given that @kasa_balavu's name doesn't say moderator on it, its a bit confusing; but all in all not really a big deal to me.
I can't create new threads in the In-Depth Kava Discussion forum but I can create new threads in the Even Further In-Depth Kava Discussion Forum. It's odd.
 

Kapmcrunk

The Kaptain (40g)
KavaForums Founder
Not to divert from OPs original topic, but all is subject to revision. So if we need to change it we will. We made the "In-depth" section closed to new submissions, but open to replies because we were moving more topics to the in depth forum, and very few threads were posted there directly.

If this isn't the best option, we would be more than happy to open it back up to starting threads there.

Oh, and for clarification your account requires 6 months of age and 50 posts to view and post to the the "Even further in depth forum". The regular "In depth" forum is open to the public to view.

A way to test whether a certain forum is open or closed is to either log out of your account, or open kavaforums.com in an private or "Incognito" tab. The forums which are closed will not appear to a user who is not logged in.
 

Blinkyrocket

Kava Enthusiast
Not to divert from OPs original topic, but all is subject to revision. So if we need to change it we will. We made the "In-depth" section closed to new submissions, but open to replies because we were moving more topics to the in depth forum, and very few threads were posted there directly.

If this isn't the best option, we would be more than happy to open it back up to starting threads there.

Oh, and for clarification your account requires 6 months of age and 50 posts to view and post to the the "Even further in depth forum". The regular "In depth" forum is open to the public to view.

A way to test whether a certain forum is open or closed is to either log out of your account, or open kavaforums.com in an private or "Incognito" tab. The forums which are closed will not appear to a user who is not logged in.
I wouldn't say it's particularly distressing to not be able to directly post new threads to the In Depth Kava Discussion sub-forums. I was just curious about it. I kinda like the idea of having a sub-forum specifically for difficult discussions that you can't post new threads onto, but can get your threads moved there if necessary. It's probably one of the, if not the, only ways to convey the message - to convey it well, anyway - that the thread, that's in the In-Depth Kava Discussion sub-forum, is a difficult discussion that belongs in the "difficult discussion" place, so to speak.
 

Pauluk

Kava Enthusiast
Re the 2nd and third washes. I only drink heavy kava. At the moment, Supreme. Ive found that when i save the makas up from the alluball. And freeze them, then trad prep a good amount somthe kava doesnt look weak. I still cant get the sedation i get from the first wash. Even with a 2nd wash in the aluball i cant get it.
 

Kapmcrunk

The Kaptain (40g)
KavaForums Founder
Yeah, but he actually did post a reply in the "in depth" section earlier today/yesterday. Is the policy that you can't reply 'til after a number of posts or you can't post new threads' til after a number of posts? I assumed it was the latter; however when I inquired about why the story about horses being disqualified for have kava in their system was "moved" to the "even further in depth" section, I was told that it started there. And given that @kasa_balavu's name doesn't say moderator on it, its a bit confusing; but all in all not really a big deal to me.
Any member who is a moderator will have the tag appear under their name. The only one that doesn't is headhodge because he's an admin. You can check the list of staff at the following link:
http://kavaforums.com/forum/members/?type=staff

Just for clarity anyone can post in the "Further In-depth" forum if they have the proper account credentials. (6 months / 50 posts)
 

verticity

I'm interested in things
To address the original question (warning: this might get a little "in depth" ):

Yes it's possible the chemotype could change after successive washes in water. The reason is that the solubility of different KLs in water is somewhat different. We sometimes say that KLs are not soluble in water, but that is not really true: they are weakly soluble. You can't dissolve a large amount, but some can dissolve.

I used the ChemAxon solubility predictor to find the following. The numbers indicate the predicted number of milligrams of a chemical that can dissolve in a liter of water.

Kavain - 166 mg/L
DHM - 206 mg/L
DHK - 494 mg/L

According to this prediction, DHM is somewhat more water soluble than kavain, and DHK is significantly more soluble. So maybe more of the "heavy" KLs--DHK and DHM--are removed in the earlier washes whereas more kavain remains because it's less soluble in water?

(The solubilities are predictions, not experimentally verified: How accurate the predictions are is a good question, but I think the method this predictor uses is OK...moreover it's apples to apples, using the same method for each KL)
 
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SelfBiasResistor

Persist for Resistance!
To address the original question (warning: this might get a little "in depth" ):

Yes it's possible the chemotype could change after successive washes in water. The reason is that the solubility of different KLs in water is somewhat different. We sometimes say that KLs are not soluble in water, but that is not really true: they are weakly soluble. You can't dissolve a large amount, but some can dissolve.

I used the ChemAxon solubility predictor to find the following. The numbers indicate the predicted number of milligrams of a chemical that can dissolve in a liter of water.

Kavain - 166 mg/L
DHM - 206 mg/L
DHK - 494 mg/L

According to this prediction, DHM is somewhat more water soluble than kavain, and DHK is significantly more soluble. So maybe more of the "heavy" KLs--DHK and DHM--are removed in the earlier washes whereas more kavain remains because it's less soluble in water?

(The solubilities are predictions, not experimentally verified: How accurate the predictions are is a good question, but I think the method this predictor uses is OK...moreover it's apples to apples, using the same method for each KL)
Perhaps that could be why I don't find the extra washes to be worth my time. When it comes to 2+ washes, I'm not really looking to extend the kavain buzz but for sedation.
 

kasa_balavu

Yaqona Dina
To address the original question (warning: this might get a little "in depth" ):

Yes it's possible the chemotype could change after successive washes in water. The reason is that the solubility of different KLs in water is somewhat different. We sometimes say that KLs are not soluble in water, but that is not really true: they are weakly soluble. You can't dissolve a large amount, but some can dissolve.

I used the ChemAxon solubility predictor to find the following. The numbers indicate the predicted number of milligrams of a chemical that can dissolve in a liter of water.

Kavain - 166 mg/L
DHM - 206 mg/L
DHK - 494 mg/L

According to this prediction, DHM is somewhat more water soluble than kavain, and DHK is significantly more soluble. So maybe more of the "heavy" KLs--DHK and DHM--are removed in the earlier washes whereas more kavain remains because it's less soluble in water?

(The solubilities are predictions, not experimentally verified: How accurate the predictions are is a good question, but I think the method this predictor uses is OK...moreover it's apples to apples, using the same method for each KL)
Great info! Thanks for that.
 

Krunkie McKrunkface

Kava Connoisseur
It's come to mind that Kava's chemotypes might change after the first wash. In my experience, Kava seems to gravitate towards headiness, and less sedation (or at least just less sedation), with each wash after the first one. Although, I'm not an expert on heaviness because, oddly enough what with my anxiety, I don't pay attention to it or desire it particularly. Does anyone else experience a shift in profile of Kava after the first wash?

Also, why don't I have sufficient privileges to post in the "In Depth Kava Discussion" forum? It's fine, but if this thread is meant for that forum, I can't post there so...
Perhaps that could be why I don't find the extra washes to be worth my time. When it comes to 2+ washes, I'm not really looking to extend the kavain buzz but for sedation.
If I ran a nak, people would be able to order different washes, 1 through 6, but equally potent.

I would also make special blends geared to taste and effect. I would be a rootista, get to know my regulars and make special kava for each person after quick reference interviews to gauge their moods, needs, and ability to respond. And I would have 30 or 40 different grinds to build with, including rare and top shelf and even exclusive items. I would charge a lot, maybe even by subscription. It would be like a great Italian restaurant, they wouldn’t order, just quaff what I gave them, beg for the privilege, pay through the nose, and get amazing results and lots of randomly reinforcing freebies and specials. It would be class, but chill. You’d have to submit tax returns for me to determine pricing, which would be based on ability to pay, so pensioners, students, etc could come, too. Of course, a wealthy and progressive benefactor would have to subsidize any shortfalls.
 
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Krunʞy

Chillin @ 40g
Admin
If I ran a nak, people would be able to order different washes, 1 through 6, but equally potent.

I would also make special blends geared to taste and effect. I would be a rootista, get to know my regulars and make special kava for each person after quick reference interviews to gauge their moods, needs, and ability to respond. And I would have 30 or 40 different grinds to build with, including rare and top shelf and even exclusive items. I would charge a lot, maybe even by subscription. It would be like a great Italian restaurant, they wouldn’t order, just quaff what I gave them, beg for the privilege, pay through the nose, and get amazing results and lots of randomly reinforcing freebies and specials. It would be class, but chill. You’d have to submit tax returns for me to determine pricing, which would be based on ability to pay, so pensioners, students, etc could come, too. Of course, a wealthy and progressive benefactor would have to subsidize any shortfalls.
The only question I have is where and when :).
 

Blinkyrocket

Kava Enthusiast
To address the original question (warning: this might get a little "in depth" ):

Yes it's possible the chemotype could change after successive washes in water. The reason is that the solubility of different KLs in water is somewhat different. We sometimes say that KLs are not soluble in water, but that is not really true: they are weakly soluble. You can't dissolve a large amount, but some can dissolve.

I used the ChemAxon solubility predictor to find the following. The numbers indicate the predicted number of milligrams of a chemical that can dissolve in a liter of water.

Kavain - 166 mg/L
DHM - 206 mg/L
DHK - 494 mg/L

According to this prediction, DHM is somewhat more water soluble than kavain, and DHK is significantly more soluble. So maybe more of the "heavy" KLs--DHK and DHM--are removed in the earlier washes whereas more kavain remains because it's less soluble in water?

(The solubilities are predictions, not experimentally verified: How accurate the predictions are is a good question, but I think the method this predictor uses is OK...moreover it's apples to apples, using the same method for each KL)
This is exactly what I was thinking, but, of course, I had no evidence. Do you know how the solubility predictor predicts solubility? Mainly, I'm wondering whether or not the structure of Kavalactones gives hints as to how soluble it is in water, or if it's something else.
 
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