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Liver break?

TrevC

Kava Enthusiast
I've read the back-and-forth on the liver study and have come to understand the often-cited study was mostly bogus, but the liver toxicity "finding" has been run with and repeated.

That said, I have come to a place where I do question if daily Kava consumption is keeping my liver tied up from processing the things I take.
I've been doing a slow taper from K@, and Kava has helped. But I have been fluctuating badly.
On the "good days", when I'm feeling the things I normally take, it is wonderful. It's on those days I think back to my low point from a few days ago and say "I don't see HOW I ever felt that bad."

On the low days, I won't even begin to call it the "dark cloud" that people sometimes use to describe general sadness. I have nothing negative in my life right now to be down about, for which I'm grateful, but on the days when it seems my body doesn't want to process/metabolize/uptake/whatever, then it's a sense of dread out of this world. Impending doom.
Worry about things that I have no reason to worry about. Fearful.
When it first happened, I felt hopeless, and that's a bad place to be. But as it keeps happening (ie. I get low, but a few days later go back up), I've learned to just *KNOW* it will get better, because it has before. That is a huge help.

My family and faith are such that I would never want to do anything to harm myself or anything like that. Though I have a better understanding of why people may do the things they do.

I'm grasping for answers. One time I thought it was a lack of fats (and wrote here about MCT/coconut oil)... then I thought it was simply needing to use digestive enzymes.
Had some bloodwork, checked thyroid, even did the food allergy testing (IGG - which I'm on the fence about anyway).

Most recent was I finally caved and got on an antidepressant: Wellbutrin @ 150mg.

The knowledge that I'm about to be dependent on two things (K@ & Wellbutrin) weighs on me. (I have researched the lowering of the seizure threshold, and have found accounts of K@ and Wellbutrin being used safely). I've been on it nearly two weeks. The good days have been even BETTER than before - and allowed me to drop the K@ faster.

By the way, I'm doing a "blind taper". My wife prepares my servings, and I know it may be the same as yesterday, or less - she's keeping up with it, but I don't want to know the amounts.
There is power in NOT knowing. At the end of a good few days, it's a great feeling when I ask and find out I made it just fine on a low daily gram amount.

Sorry for this long post. I'm just sharing in hopes that SOMEBODY out there has experienced something similar, or that somebody knows what may be going on.
In the meantime, I'll be going without Kava. It may be as simple as that. Hitting my body with it daily (twice a day for over a year, until the start of this year, when I dropped the lunch Kava and dropped to just drinking Kava at night.) might be the issue. I hope that's all it is.

I sincerely appreciate your advice.
 

Jacob Bula

Nobody
When I drink kava daily I get extremely lethargic after a few days. Lose interest in everything. I don't really feel sad, I just don't feel anything. I drink kava for 2 weeks, then I'm off for two weeks. That seems to help my brain sort itself out.
 

TrevC

Kava Enthusiast
Thank you for sharing that!

I wound up drinking at least 15 grams before bed last night, in hopes I could get some sleep.
Woke up to dread and tear-filled eyes. Something is wrong, and I have this fear that I'm not long for this world. Though I know that has to be irrational.
 

The Kap'n

The Groggy Kaptain (40g)
KavaForums Founder
Thank you for sharing that!

I wound up drinking at least 15 grams before bed last night, in hopes I could get some sleep.
Woke up to dread and tear-filled eyes. Something is wrong, and I have this fear that I'm not long for this world. Though I know that has to be irrational.
First and foremost I need to declare that I am not a doctor or a medical physician in any way.

I read your post last night and have been thinking about it all morning. These sorts of intrusive thoughts and back and forth emotional states are quite classic of bipolar disorder, however I also see that you're tapering an opioid. That in itself can be causing these unbalanced states to arise. I would continue with your Wellbutrin and continue your taper. Once you're through with that phase of your life, brew up some shells and see if you agree with it then.
 

TrevC

Kava Enthusiast
First and foremost I need to declare that I am not a doctor or a medical physician in any way.

I read your post last night and have been thinking about it all morning. These sorts of intrusive thoughts and back and forth emotional states are quite classic of bipolar disorder, however I also see that you're tapering an opioid. That in itself can be causing these unbalanced states to arise. I would continue with your Wellbutrin and continue your taper. Once you're through with that phase of your life, brew up some shells and see if you agree with it then.
Thank you, sir. I sincerely appreciate the thought you put into this, and your kind response.

I’ve recently (today) learned that stress itself can prevent the absorption of medicines/supplements.



The “stress” thing is one I have always downplayed. But can it really - high stress level - cause malabsorption of what I’m taking?
It would make sense, especially given my work circumstances. Family life is wonderful, but I ruminate on everything left undone, yet to do.
I do that when I’m feeling GOOD, and it doesn’t cripple me.

But can it build over a few days and mess with cortisol and other factors to basically seize one from feeling these things?

Because what it FEELS like is K@ withdrawals.
Exactly. I didn’t consider it could be that really until reading the stress / absorption correlation.

Thank you again. I’m thankful for this forum.
 

The Kap'n

The Groggy Kaptain (40g)
KavaForums Founder
Thank you, sir. I sincerely appreciate the thought you put into this, and your kind response.

I’ve recently (today) learned that stress itself can prevent the absorption of medicines/supplements.



The “stress” thing is one I have always downplayed. But can it really - high stress level - cause malabsorption of what I’m taking?
It would make sense, especially given my work circumstances. Family life is wonderful, but I ruminate on everything left undone, yet to do.
I do that when I’m feeling GOOD, and it doesn’t cripple me.

But can it build over a few days and mess with cortisol and other factors to basically seize one from feeling these things?

Because what it FEELS like is K@ withdrawals.
Exactly. I didn’t consider it could be that really until reading the stress / absorption correlation.

Thank you again. I’m thankful for this forum.
Thank you for that link. I just read through the paper and wow, that is super interesting. It seems it's restricted to patients that have undergone some sort of really damaging physical trauma such as surgery or traumatic injury. I'm not 100% sure that this applies to situational stress, however it's implications are interesting to say the least.

In regards to cortisol, kava has been found to substantially reduce cortisol levels in vivo.

I think classic withdrawal issues are what's plaguing you right now.
 

TrevC

Kava Enthusiast
Thank you for that link. I just read through the paper and wow, that is super interesting. It seems it's restricted to patients that have undergone some sort of really damaging physical trauma such as surgery or traumatic injury. I'm not 100% sure that this applies to situational stress, however it's implications are interesting to say the least.

In regards to cortisol, kava has been found to substantially reduce cortisol levels in vivo.

I think classic withdrawal issues are what's plaguing you right now.
It really FEELS like the time I quit K@ cold-turkey. The thing was... I expected it. It was very difficult, but I knew why it was happening.
Went 5 days without sleep and experienced the worst sense of dread I had ever experienced (at that point in my life) on days 2 and 3.
Got back to baseline and knew I needed something to be productive and happy, which is what lead me to K@ in the first place.

What's scary about this is not knowing why it's happening. But you bring up a good point... it could be related to K@ withdrawal.
If I KNOW that's all it is, I'll feel a lot better.

Ohhhhhh how I wish I had discovered Kava FIRST, and just stuck with only that.

So what I'm researching now is the gut/brain relationship and if it's even possible that my body isn't processing supplements right.

One thing I have noticed: When motility/regularity isn't working right, then my mood will be terrible.
It's a chicken-or-the-egg thing... I'm not sure if gut motility leads to the terrible mental feeling, or if the stress leads to a shutting down of gut motility.

I can say that I'm feeling dramatically better at this point.
I returned to having my regular midday pre-lunch Kava, which I had cut out, and that may have something to do with it. Can't say for sure.
...and Kava has always had this positive effect on regularity, so there's also that.

Reading your responses and working through this has been helpful.
Thank each one of you.
 

Groggy

Kava aficionado
Admin
Thank you for sharing that!

I wound up drinking at least 15 grams before bed last night, in hopes I could get some sleep.
Woke up to dread and tear-filled eyes. Something is wrong, and I have this fear that I'm not long for this world. Though I know that has to be irrational.
I think and feel the stress of current events creeping up on me lately, I am generally a positive person and I've had and have anxiety/stress issues as it was. For the most part, with kava and therapy I was doing just fine. It feels harder lately, I don't think I am alone in that sentiment.

We are living through unusually stressful times and acknowledging that is half the battle. My family and this family have been most helpful.
 

Jacob Bula

Nobody
It really FEELS like the time I quit K@ cold-turkey. The thing was... I expected it. It was very difficult, but I knew why it was happening.
Went 5 days without sleep and experienced the worst sense of dread I had ever experienced (at that point in my life) on days 2 and 3.
Got back to baseline and knew I needed something to be productive and happy, which is what lead me to K@ in the first place.

What's scary about this is not knowing why it's happening. But you bring up a good point... it could be related to K@ withdrawal.
If I KNOW that's all it is, I'll feel a lot better.

Ohhhhhh how I wish I had discovered Kava FIRST, and just stuck with only that.

So what I'm researching now is the gut/brain relationship and if it's even possible that my body isn't processing supplements right.

One thing I have noticed: When motility/regularity isn't working right, then my mood will be terrible.
It's a chicken-or-the-egg thing... I'm not sure if gut motility leads to the terrible mental feeling, or if the stress leads to a shutting down of gut motility.

I can say that I'm feeling dramatically better at this point.
I returned to having my regular midday pre-lunch Kava, which I had cut out, and that may have something to do with it. Can't say for sure.
...and Kava has always had this positive effect on regularity, so there's also that.

Reading your responses and working through this has been helpful.
Thank each one of you.
Just remember, you will have good days again. You won’t always feel like this even though it seems that way now. When I used to go through alcohol withdrawals i felt extreme existential dread. Now looking back that feels like a different person, but every once in a while it creeps back in. I just try to embrace depression Knowing that future good days feel better when you’ve experienced bad ones.
 

TrevC

Kava Enthusiast
Was just going through my bloodwork (attached) from last year and noticed the Albumin/Globulin ratio.

When reviewing this all with me, the doctor didn't say anything about that particular part. I asked about my liver, in general, and she said it looked fine.
But I didn't catch the Albumin/Globulin thing until just today, going back through all this.

Posting here in case it jumps out at anyone. I've read some incredibly well-researched posts from others who know the ins and outs of the human body, substances, etc. So I'm sharing in case the right set of eyes see it and maybe make a connection.
 

Attachments

The Kap'n

The Groggy Kaptain (40g)
KavaForums Founder
Was just going through my bloodwork (attached) from last year and noticed the Albumin/Globulin ratio.

When reviewing this all with me, the doctor didn't say anything about that particular part. I asked about my liver, in general, and she said it looked fine.
But I didn't catch the Albumin/Globulin thing until just today, going back through all this.

Posting here in case it jumps out at anyone. I've read some incredibly well-researched posts from others who know the ins and outs of the human body, substances, etc. So I'm sharing in case the right set of eyes see it and maybe make a connection.
Based on this lab report I would say they were thinking your kidneys were where the problems were originating. That high potassium and GFR speak to that. Even the albumin backs it up.
 

TrevC

Kava Enthusiast
Interestingly, I'm reading that the albumin/globulin proteins can show an increase in cases:

Where production of albumin or globulin proteins is impaired, such as malnutrition or severe liver disease

Given that my liver enzymes look OKAY (tell me if I'm wrong), and I don't seem to be in liver failure, then this sorta goes back to the malnutrition hunch.
 

TrevC

Kava Enthusiast
Based on this lab report I would say they were thinking your kidneys were where the problems were originating. That high potassium and GFR speak to that. Even the albumin backs it up.
Sorry - your reply came in as I was typing that last one.
Kidneys... interesting. Thank you for pointing that out.

I started looking at potassium-binding compounds, but that seems to be a medical thing moreso than an over-the-counter supplement situation.
 

TrevC

Kava Enthusiast
Phenomenal day so far today, thankfully.

Tried KWK Special Variety and was honestly floored by it. Had quit drinking Kava before lunch, and reserving it for after work only.
Loa Waka has been my go-to. Reading that it was the "strongest" they sell, I assumed it was the one to go with.
But man, that KWK Special Variety really surprised me.

What I LIKE about it is that, unlike KWK Loa Waka, I had 5 spaced shells and didn't wind up lethargic afterwards. I made that mistake with Loa Waka midday before, and it zapped my motivation. So glad to have tried the Special Variety.

Have a Dr. appointment lined up to look into the potential mal-absorption and other concerns, but enjoying this good day while it's here.
 
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