Noble vs Non Noble and The Kava Studies per Judd.

[Deleted User01]

I emailed Judd from Bula House the other day and voiced my concerns about Koniak and any other Non-Noble type of Kava. As usual, he took a considerable amount of time from his busy schedule to email me an excellent explanation. I asked him to post it but he's a low keyed guy so I'm going to post it for him and then I'm ordering the Fiji. Here it is:

Noble kava is the name given to a handful of varieties from Vanuatu. They are high quality daily drinking kavas. They were called noble long before any testing was possible. They all tend to be high in certain kavalactones, low in others.

To say that only "noble" kava is safe is completely incorrect because that would mean that only kava grown in Vanuatu is safe. Any kava without high levels of flavokavain B and/or mold infection, devoid of stems and leaves is just as safe. It just won't be called "noble" if it's not from Vanuatu. For example, there are a few strains in Fiji that people simply call "white" kava. These strains would likely be deemed "noble" if they were Vanuatu grown.

All four of the Vanuatu varieties we sell are noble tested varieties. Exportation of anything else is not allowed.

Waka is from lateral root only, and is definitely NOT a tudei.

Koniak is not described as a tudei by my supplier or the farmers, and is made with a combination of about 40% lateral roots and 60% chips.

Koniak and Waka will likely be tested someday just for fun, but they've both been safely enjoyed for decades.

Fu'u has been tested by my supplier and I've seen the results. It too would likely fit into the "noble" category if it were grown in Vanuatu.

All of our kava comes from FDA certified processing centers, and receives a phytosanitary certificate before importation. There is definitely no mold or other contaminants.

Hope that helps.

Judd

 

[Bula Kava House]

Posted a few hours ago where the videos were posted, but thanks. I Ike this info being readily available.

 

[Andrew Procyk]

"I cannot see why it would be improper to refer to other good kava varieties, from other Pacific Island Countries, as nobles. If they are good, it means that they have been nobilized. There is no patent on the Vanuatu Kava Act word "noble" it can be used for other good kavas elsewhere, and the same can be said for two-days (isa is a two-day) and wichmannii kava varieties.
The main thing is for people to understand what we are referring to: quality per se" - Dr. Vincent Lebot

So, it is essentially a matter of semantics, but I assume we all know what we are talking about here, right? (I hope)

Cheers!
AP

 

[Bula Kava House]

With no specific criteria, we could call anything "noble", but the word as it relates to kava includes a specific group of cultivars from Vanuatu ONLY. If we're going to start talking about other kavas being noble we need to know exactly what that means. For example, if it's about chemotype, could a cultivar with chemotype 254xxx. in which the first three kavalactones are close to equal in quantity be noble? What if it has a total kavalactone content of 6%? 10%? Does that make a difference. What if people said it "felt like a tudei"? Does that automatically take it out of the running? Too many variables to just use the term loosely. I'm up for working on something specific with anyone interested but even then it would still be a set of guidelines known only to a small set of people, and wouldn't include the hundreds of kava farmers who have had the growing and use of this sacred plant in their blood and culture for centuries.

 

[sɥɐʞɐs]

I personally don't mind trying to spread the term "noble" to other countries cultivars. But I agree that it would probably only spread among this very small group of users online/America/Europe. Standards for the industry would more importantly need to be agreed upon by each Kava producing country themselves. I do like what the Vanuatu Kava Act has done and wouldn't mind seeing it expand, both in detail and all through the Pacific. I'm not sure how correct I am, but, I'd venture to say every other country's most commonly consumed and sold kavas could easily be deemed "Noble". Their track records have already been proven through the countries history of usage. If new or rare cultivars began to show up, the only criteria for them to become 'noble' should be that they have been proven (lab tested) to not contain significant amounts of more harmful chemicals (like flavokavain-b) and that they are effective.
This seems kinda similar to the usage of the word "Waka". It tends to only get used in reference Fiji kava. But I think it could easily be used for all kavas, when applicable. It's much quicker to say 'waka' than 'one hundred percent lateral root...'. Plus, it's usage is already pretty well established. So, that's a good start.
If Kava were to ever fully blossom as a major industry in the states and other parts of the world. Government standards and business branding laws..etc..would surely steamroll right over any work we've done. Picture the alcohol industry, with all these specific things like:

-Only Scottish Whisky can be spelled 'Whisky' others must be spelled 'Whiskey. Scotch must be made of malt barely.

-Cognac Brandy can only be made from grapes of the Congac region of France and must be twice distilled in copper pot stills and aged at least two years in specific French oak barrels.

-Anything labeled 'Tequila' must be a product of Mexico.

-ABV standards for various types of alcohol...and bottling sizes...etc...

 

[infraredz]

I guess I'm with Dr. Lebot here. I think that there is absolutely no reason why we can't refer to kavas from sources other than Vanuatu as tudei or noble for sake of simplicity. We now know that tudei kava presents very specific analytes compared to noble kava.

In my opinion, and I would assume Lebot would agree, (for the most part, and for simplicity) noble kava can very simply be defined as kava that is free from flavokavains- that's it. As we saw with the results from the HPTLC, even noble kavas differ in the mass percent composition so the k-lactone contents don't have any bearing on flavokavains. I would agree that theoretically, there is a correlation between high DHM and DHK amounts to tudei kava. However, from what it appears to me (and a PhD botanist I consulted) is that the correlation does not equal causation in this particular situation.

What needs to be put in place is independent testing to evaluate the composition (ie. presence) of flavokavains. I wonder if even simple paper chromatography can have enough separation to show flavokavains or if the limited stationary phase and decreased separation wouldn't work. Regardless, there are plenty of labs that run HPTLC in America and not that I am for more external regulation (in any sense, really), I do believe that there is an onus on vendors in America (and elsewhere for that matter) to have their samples tested for flavokavains. If none are detected, I don't see why we all can't call it a noble kava and move on.

 

[kavadude]

It doesn't really matter what the term is, but it does seem clear that there are different classes of cultivars of kava and it is useful to make a distinction between them.

 

[Bula Kava House]

I agree with most of you in that I have no problem whatsoever calling kava from other countries "noble", it should simply be defined what that means. Otherwise anybody could run around calling any kava noble. I like the idea that it could be a maximum level of flavokavain B, but how much? Keep in mind that even the noblest of Vanuatu grown kavas have some FK-B content.

But then what if we found a super strong, sedating kava that had long lasting effects due to a certain chemotype, yet little FK-B? This kava would not have been called "noble" back when the Ni-Vanuatu were deciding what was noble and what was not, so who are we to say that that kava is indeed noble?

 

[kavadude]

Well the elephant in the room here is liver damage. Specifically determining what kava may not be safe for human consumption. Lebot's simple solvent test seems like a great start, particularly if the darker colored samples always reflect a higher content of FKB and other undesirable compounds. Forget the Vanuatu kava terms, chemotypes and subjective effects, let's just separate it into what kavas we should and shouldn't drink. And I am still not 100% sold on tudei kava being unsafe to drink, but better safe than sorry.

 

[Bula Kava House]

Yeah, liver damage sucks, and if high levels of FK-B cause it we should avoid kavas with a large amount of it, at least for regular drinking purposes. Lebot's test is really cool, but the darker color did not indicate higher amounts of FK-B. Lebot himself in the video said he didn't know what was causing the darker color.

 

[infraredz]

I agree that since the mechanism behind the color change isn't known, we should only take it to be a correlation and not representative of FKB. That's why I think that the way to deal with this is independent testing to evaluate the sample's composition (ie. presence) for flavokavains.

 

[kavadude]

Thats more or less what I meant. Still waiting for the research on what the color actually means. And whether FKB is truly harmful.

 

[infraredz]

Thats more or less what I meant. Still waiting for the research on what the color actually means. And whether FKB is truly harmful.

To address the 2nd point
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2992378/
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1447-0756.2011.01841.x/full

Both seem to be in vitro, so short of an in vivo study I guess we aren't certain but then again we are talking about kava which is notoriously under researched and we might be end up waiting too long...

 

[kavadude]

Well I wouldn't recommend anyone go out and drink jugs of flavokawain, but in vitro hepatotoxicity does not necessarily mean it is unsafe to consume in certain amounts. Based on how rare kava-related liver damage is I assume there must be some perfect storm of shit manufacturer practices/flavokawain or other compound content/mold infection required for it to happen.

 

[infraredz]

Right, because like Judd said, it does appear in even noble kava, just in smaller quantities. I agree that pipermethystine, comorbid conditions, and FKB and some sort of pathogen are all things that will lead to (still) rare conditions of hepatotoxicity. The question now is how we minimize and determine the actual harmful constituents of kava. Obviously, getting rid of pipermethystine is already standard practice (but might not have been during the 'extract era') and kava is tested for pathogens such as aflatoxins before being imported.

That leaves us, as US consumers of reputable kava with the question of the other two. Of course, concurrent alcohol usage is more than likely to cause a synergistic hepatotoxic effect, but there are other conditions that should be considered too.

The only other probable toxin is FKB and I think that is why there is so much focus on it.

 

[kavadude]

According to Lebot in his interview with Andrew, there is no flavokawain B in noble kavas. Which also suggests to me that kava researchers need to start making this distinction sooner rather than later.

 

[Bula Kava House]

Well I wouldn't recommend anyone go out and drink jugs of flavokawain, but in vitro hepatotoxicity does not necessarily mean it is unsafe to consume in certain amounts. Based on how rare kava-related liver damage is I assume there must be some perfect storm of shit manufacturer practices/flavokawain or other compound content/mold infection required for it to happen.

Agreed.

According to Lebot in his interview with Andrew, there is no flavokawain B in noble kavas. Which also suggests to me that kava researchers need to start making this distinction sooner rather than later.

I believe he misspoke a bit. You can clearly see in the test a small color change where the compound shows up. Just much less than on the tudeis and wichmaniis he tested.

 

[kavadude]

Oh right. I remember because I specifically asked Andrew about that, but I guess I forgot. Noble kava roots have a negligible amount compared to tudei/wichmanii. (In the interview, Lebot actually says "none")

 

[infraredz]

It seems that a mass spec should be able to give us all precise numbers that show the actual percent composition by mass of FKB in tudei vs noble. That should really give us a better understanding of how much FKB is really in the samples since chromatography is useful in identifying and separating compounds/substances but there is a reason that those fancy machines are called GC/MS. The chromatography is really only a way to separate compounds, and in this case while it is important to see a definite and distinct difference, the actual biological/physiological realities of the amounts is what needs to be addressed. Unfortunately, while good chromatography machines are highly useful, they are also significantly cheaper than mass specs that can run upwards of 100,000. I wonder how big Vanuatu's budget is for their dpt of agriculture...

 

[kavadude]

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_trk...ter&_nkw=mass+spectrometer&_sacat=0&_from=R40