Kava Fact of the Day Scientists Condemn BfArM's decision to ban kava.

[The Kap'n]

Hello kava lovers. Today's fact of the day is actually quite short in contrast to my usual write-ups.

So I found a rather curious document today doing some of my normal research. It's a document from July of 2002 strongly condemning BfArM's decision to pull the products containing kava off the market. Not only this, but they also clearly disagree with the risks related to dosage and length of treatment time.


I highly suggest giving this document a read through.

Really makes you think about how kava was railroaded into its current position with little regard to the actual science at hand.

 

[Manuel Joao]

Kava the cure for angst

 

[Alia]

It is quite a coincidence that you post this regarding Commission E stance. I recently re-reviewed a 1998 Kava presentation by Dr. Dennis McKenna and Commission E is referenced long before the "liver scare" in strong defense of kava in general. They were ahead of their time, but sadly not listened to. In the same talk Dr. McKenna constrasts the US's FDA kava stance with that of Commission E. Even before the liver scare FDA was closed minded in my view. They now go along reluctantly with the Codex standards with a "we wish you'd give it more time" as if thousands of years is not enough.

 

[The Kap'n]

They now go along reluctantly with the Codex standards with a "we wish you'd give it more time" as if thousands of years is not enough.

And I have reluctant sympathy for them during this trying time

For real, this is quite eye opening that BfArM's own scientists were vehemently against this legislation. It really shows how rotten to the core it was that it was enacted at all.

 

[Michael Nielsen]

The problem for many European kava users is that kava might be defined as medicine.
And you are not allowed to import medicine. Some countries are a less strict on this matter. I have heard that they are attempting to have kava classified as food instead.

 

[Alia]

The problem for many European kava users is that kava might be defined as medicine.
And you are not allowed to import medicine. Some countries are a less strict on this matter. I have heard that they are attempting to have kava classified as food instead.

Correct. This is when we get into kava extracts vrs. kava as a food/beverage. Two different critters.

 

[The Kap'n]

The problem for many European kava users is that kava might be defined as medicine.
And you are not allowed to import medicine. Some countries are a less strict on this matter. I have heard that they are attempting to have kava classified as food instead.

What the Codex and FDA are currently banging out right now is an attempt to accept standards on kava powder as a food item while extracts and kava containing supplements will still be considered medicinal.

and I see Alia beat me to the punch.

 

[Michael Nielsen]

This is the response I got from German customs


It is really helpful that you now provide information on the goods you really intend to import. Such dried kava powder is usually considered non-animal food or dietary supplement. But there could be a problem. Some dietary supplements can be considered so called "drugs by presentation" according to the German Medicinal Products Act. This is often the case if there are health effects described at the package, e.g. a better sleep or mood. Customs is not the competent authority for such a classification. These are the health authorities of the German Federal Lands. Please contact them to be sure that the cava powder you intend to order is not considered medicine. Here you can find their contact data: https://www.zlg.de/arzneimittel/deutschland/laenderbehoerden



As far as this answer contains legal statements, the information can only be given to the best of our knowledge and does not establish any legal claims.

Yours sincerely



Generalzolldirektion
Zentrale Auskunft
(Central Information Unit of the German customs administration)
Postfach 10 07 61
01077 Dresden

 

[The Kap'n]

This is the response I got from German customs


It is really helpful that you now provide information on the goods you really intend to import. Such dried kava powder is usually considered non-animal food or dietary supplement. But there could be a problem. Some dietary supplements can be considered so called "drugs by presentation" according to the German Medicinal Products Act. This is often the case if there are health effects described at the package, e.g. a better sleep or mood. Customs is not the competent authority for such a classification. These are the health authorities of the German Federal Lands. Please contact them to be sure that the cava powder you intend to order is not considered medicine. Here you can find their contact data: https://www.zlg.de/arzneimittel/deutschland/laenderbehoerden



As far as this answer contains legal statements, the information can only be given to the best of our knowledge and does not establish any legal claims.

Yours sincerely



Generalzolldirektion
Zentrale Auskunft
(Central Information Unit of the German customs administration)
Postfach 10 07 61
01077 Dresden

Interesting. So if it looks like it's going to be used as a medicine it's classified as such. I mean, that makes sense on a very practical level.

Maybe we all need to just start referring to the kava powders as foods from now on. That would certainly help the FDA digest their woeful decisions.

I assume that if I asked a question similar in Germany, but was in the context of coffee the same rules would hold if the coffee vendor has a pic of Walter White cooking blue meth on the bag.

 

[Alia]

As a side, the Codex standards will not apply in Germany in any case- "In September 2020* the Commission formally adopted the Kava Standards which means the USA, Canada, New Zealand, Australia and 10 Pacific Island states can now trade kava products amongst themselves as a food and beverage".
* labeling language comes in September 2021.

 

[Michael Nielsen]

Its depends on the customs agent handling your shipment if decide its medicine it difficult.
Like I had some carbonated kava refused.
While i got some kava Pastils accepted.

But refraining from medical claims is a good start.

 

[Michael Nielsen]

As a side, the Codex standards will not apply in Germany in any case- "In September 2020* the Commission formally adopted the Kava Standards which means the USA, Canada, New Zealand, Australia and 10 Pacific Island states can now trade kava products amongst themselves as a food and beverage".
* labeling language comes in September 2021.

The codex would be interesting if it was ratified worldwide. And not only in the pacific region.

 

[kasa_balavu]

The codex would be interesting if it was ratified worldwide. And not only in the pacific region.

It might take a while, but we'll get there. The Codex regional standard will make it easier for parties within Australia, USA, and Canada to push for favourable changes (for kava) in their respective legislations. Then, after a few years of kava being consumed widely and without issue in these countries, other countries around the world will have to accept that kava is fine.

"... pressure and time. That’s all it takes really, pressure, and time." - Red

 

[Orz[EST]]

>Maybe we all need to just start referring to the kava powders as foods from now on.

Battlefield of medicines is for pharma tiger and regulatory lion. Little civets keep out, coffee is your playground and maybe kava, too...

 

[Jacob Bula]

The commission of scientists that Nixon tasked with investigating psychoactive substances also provided research findings to argue against placing psychedelics and cannabis in Schedule I when Nixon created the drug scheduling system. We all know how that turned out. Science SHOULD be the basis for legal policy, it usually isn't. Legal policy usually has a foundation in emotion and culture, not reality.

 

[Jacob Bula]

It is quite a coincidence that you post this regarding Commission E stance. I recently re-reviewed a 1998 Kava presentation by Dr. Dennis McKenna and Commission E is referenced long before the "liver scare" in strong defense of kava in general. They were ahead of their time, but sadly not listened to. In the same talk Dr. McKenna constrasts the US's FDA kava stance with that of Commission E. Even before the liver scare FDA was closed minded in my view. They now go along reluctantly with the Codex standards with a "we wish you'd give it more time" as if thousands of years is not enough.

Dennis Mckenna mentioneed kava in a recent Tm Ferris podcast as well:

Tim Ferriss: And I think it’s also worth highlighting for folks and you would have, I’m sure, dozens or hundreds of examples how many commonly used compounds or drugs have come out of in some form of ethnopharmacology, right? Whether it be aspirin, or you mentioned dart poisons, that curare leading then into anesthesia, and the list just goes on and on and on. There are so many things we take for granted that have their origins in these places.

Dennis McKenna: The whole spectrum really of when you’re talking about natural products, especially for things like CNS-active natural products, and so on. They come out of a cultural context. We know about these things because they have a cultural context. And I mean if you look at even just herbal medicines, herbal remedies, every one of these things that you can buy in the drugstore or the health food store has a story behind it, has a cultural back story.

And then, entrepreneurial forces and commercial forces take that and develop products out of it. For example, kava kava is a good example of that. I mean it’s now a supplement and you can buy it in a health food store. It’s a very useful muscle relaxant and sort of tranquilizer, but it comes out of the context of Polynesian traditional medicine. Many, many things are that way. So there’s always a cultural backstory.

That’s what I like about ethnopharmacology. It ties those kinds of things together with the nuts and bolts side of it, what are the active ingredients? What’s the chemistry? What’s the pharmacology? And so on.

 

[Michael Nielsen]

It might take a while, but we'll get there. The Codex regional standard will make it easier for parties within Australia, USA, and Canada to push for favourable changes (for kava) in their respective legislations. Then, after a few years of kava being consumed widely and without issue in these countries, other countries around the world will have to accept that kava is fine.

"... pressure and time. That’s all it takes really, pressure, and time." - Red

Well they had signed a document, thats nice, but there is still the process of legalizing it, Australia has signed its still not legal there?

 

[Alia]

Dennis Mckenna mentioneed kava in a recent Tm Ferris podcast as well:

Tim Ferriss: And I think it’s also worth highlighting for folks and you would have, I’m sure, dozens or hundreds of examples how many commonly used compounds or drugs have come out of in some form of ethnopharmacology, right? Whether it be aspirin, or you mentioned dart poisons, that curare leading then into anesthesia, and the list just goes on and on and on. There are so many things we take for granted that have their origins in these places.

Dennis McKenna: The whole spectrum really of when you’re talking about natural products, especially for things like CNS-active natural products, and so on. They come out of a cultural context. We know about these things because they have a cultural context. And I mean if you look at even just herbal medicines, herbal remedies, every one of these things that you can buy in the drugstore or the health food store has a story behind it, has a cultural back story.

And then, entrepreneurial forces and commercial forces take that and develop products out of it. For example, kava kava is a good example of that. I mean it’s now a supplement and you can buy it in a health food store. It’s a very useful muscle relaxant and sort of tranquilizer, but it comes out of the context of Polynesian traditional medicine. Many, many things are that way. So there’s always a cultural backstory.

That’s what I like about ethnopharmacology. It ties those kinds of things together with the nuts and bolts side of it, what are the active ingredients? What’s the chemistry? What’s the pharmacology? And so on.

In the same 1998 "Kava Presentation" I referred to, Dennis talks a lot about kava extracts, supplements, and differentiates them with the traditional aqueous, culturally significant Kava Beverage. He is very good about that. His detailed explanation of kavain "increases your ability to think and act" is great as is the "gaba receptor complex".

 

[kavakarma]

I naturally view kava as a food, and not a medicine, even if my use of kava could be considered medicinal. I'm hesitant to bring it up, I think cannabis is a great example here, many people where I live consider it a medicine. Say, two out of three people claim that. I say it's a food. In fact, medicine should begin with our diet in any event. That plant has an equal number of uses in the kitchen as it does in medicine. And kava does too! Anyone who uses coffee as a stimulant is using coffee medicinally, and anyone who likes the flavor of the bitter coffee bean brew is enjoying it as a food and beverage. If you are in both categories, you swing your position to err towards what you are supporting at the time, whether it be for or against. it will balance! I'm sure of this.

I appreciate that Dennis McKenna took the time to use the phrase, herbal remedies. Was his brother Terence? Today I learned that Dennis McKenna is still living.

 

[Alia]

I naturally view kava as a food, and not a medicine, even if my use of kava could be considered medicinal. I'm hesitant to bring it up, I think cannabis is a great example here, many people where I live consider it a medicine. Say, two out of three people claim that. I say it's a food. In fact, medicine should begin with our diet in any event. That plant has an equal number of uses in the kitchen as it does in medicine. And kava does too! Anyone who uses coffee as a stimulant is using coffee medicinally, and anyone who likes the flavor of the bitter coffee bean brew is enjoying it as a food and beverage. If you are in both categories, you swing your position to err towards what you are supporting at the time, whether it be for or against. it will balance! I'm sure of this.

I appreciate that Dennis McKenna took the time to use the phrase, herbal remedies. Was his brother Terence? Today I learned that Dennis McKenna is still living.

Yes, Terence was his brother. Terence lived on Hawai'i Island and Dennis often visited him here.
...and if you wish to view Dennis' Kava Presentation from '98, it is available at associationforhawaiianawa.org in "Photos and video"