Tudei is NOT an "elite" or "specialty" kava for "connoisseurs". Newbies: know what you drink!

[TheKavaSociety]

I've noticed that many new forum members appear to be choosing tudei kavas as their first kavas. As we are all aware of the controversy surrounding these kavas, I've been wondering why so many new people would be keen to begin their kava journey with this type of kava. I have asked a couple of new members about it and I have reviewed the descriptions of tudei products on various websites and I believe that one of the main reasons why tudei kavas are popular among the inexperienced drinkers is the way in which they are described by the vendors. Following the discussions here and the publications of various papers suggesting that tudei kavas are much more likely than noble kavas to produce adverse side-effects and unpleasant effects, many vendors have chosen to discontinue selling these varieties. Others vendors have chosen instead to amend the labelling of their tudei products. Ostensibly, the new labels were added to ensure honesty in advertising. I personally hoped that they would provide new users with a good understanding of the differences between noble and tudei. Naturally, nobody was expecting from the vendors to exaggerate the dangers posed by tudei or only talk about the side-effects. It is obvious that some people do enjoy tudei-effects and it is not dishonest to suggest that some people might find these kavas attractive.

The problem is that these new labels suggest something very strange. I've looked at a number of websites selling tudei and virtually none of the tudei descriptions mentions any adverse effects or the fact that most seasoned kava users choose noble over tudei. Instead, it is suggested that tudei kavas are "elite", "speciality" kavas for "experienced kava connoisseurs". Practically all vendors describe tudei kavas are their "most potent products" that "never disappoint". Some vendors warn that due to their extreme potency, the tudei are "not recommended for new kava users". I find these descriptions to be questionable. In my view, these labels suggest that the more experienced a kava drinker is the more likely he or she is to enjoy tudei. They also suggest reliability and good value for money. In a way, it is suggested that tudei kavas are stronger versions of noble kavas. Consequently, they may appear as super attractive to new users, especially those who worry about reverse tolerance.

I don't mind people drinking tudei. I don't really think it's a big safety issue. However, I think that tudei kavas are not only quantitatively different to nobles. They are qualitatively distinct. They don't offer more of the noble effects. They offer very different effects and may cause adverse reactions. Most regular kava users avoid tudei. In Vanuatu, where people love strong kavas, few, if any, people would touch tudei. So, in my view, suggesting that tudei kavas are "speciality kavas" for "connoiseurs" or "experienced kava drinkers" might be misleading.

What do you think?

 

[Steve Mariotti]

You're right, and I've never looked at it from that perspective. They make it sound like "experienced kava drinkers" prefer two day, and that's just wrong.

What they are calling "a kava for more experienced kava connoisseurs" is in fact something the Islanders in Vanuatu wouldn't drink.

I think "Not Daily Drinking" would work. Or some variant on that. Or "Do Not Consume Regularly".

 

[TheKavaSociety]

I think "Not Daily Drinking" would work. Or some variant on that. Or "Do Not Consume Regularly".

Hm, perhaps. But that still implies that tudei is "the real deal", something super strong and not for the faint-hearted. It still seems tempting.
To me, all these labels suggest that seasoned kava drinkers appreciate tudei. For me it's the other way around.

A more accurate/honest description would mention the potential adverse effects (kava hangover, lethargy, more nausea, etc) and not just focus on how "strong" this kava is.

 

[Vekta]

It's strong but imo not a pleasant kind of strong.

 

[Steve Mariotti]

"Tainted" kava, then? "Non-Noble", I guess works the best.

 

[TheKavaSociety]

"Tainted" kava, then? "Non-Noble", I guess works the best.

Non-noble is fine. I also like to call tudeis "non-recreational kavas". It's not the kind of kava you would drink to relax with family or friends after work. Or the kind of kava you would drink while reading a good book or watching the sunset on some tropical island.

 

[nabanga]

Well written, and as Deleted User says, in Vanuatu no one would knowingly drink tudei ( which for those not already aware is bislama for "two-day", ie. that's how long it effects you).
If a nakamal serves tudei in Vanuatu, word quickly gets around and they lose their customers.
What's more, it is not necessarily stronger than noble kavas - I' ve been given tudei a few times and whilst 10 shells or so had my muscles locked up all night and generally made me feel bad, the actual strength was nothing on a couple of good chewed Tanna shells.

 

[verticity]

I think "Not Daily Drinking" would work. Or some variant on that. Or "Do Not Consume Regularly".

The thing is, those descriptions are accurate, but not the whole story. If you just leave it at "not for daily drinking," it is kind of like a dog-whistle for those who already know what tudei is, to appease people who would criticize vendors for not labeling their kava accurately, but still without actually labeling it accurately. Wanting to have it both ways.

Descriptions like "for experienced drinkers", "may be too potent" are basically like leaving a young child alone in a room with a cookie jar, and telling her: "Don't eat any of these cookies. They are extremely yummy, and are only for more experienced cookie-eaters."

And another point: as @nabanga points out, tudeis are in general not any more "potent" than nobles in terms of kavalactone content. They may have more or less kavalactones, depending on the cultivar and growing conditions. They do in general have more DHM than kavain, but from my perspective, kavain is more "potent" in the sense of giving me the effects I like. If you enjoy feeling heavily sedated, you could say DHM is more "potent" in that sense, but it's not the kind of potency I look for in a kava.

Great post @Henry - The apparent popularity of tudei with newcomers, and Koniak in particular, has been bothering me too.

 

[verticity]

I should add. For newbies who want to find out which kavas are tudei, or might be adulterated with tudei, visit True Kava!

 

[verticity]

"Tainted" kava, then? "Non-Noble", I guess works the best.

"Tainted" is not right, because that would imply it is contaminated, which it is not (one hopes). It is just a different thing.

How about "Ape Choad" kava?

Actually probably a good analogous term, borrowed from another substance, would be "schwag" = low grade, less desirable, something you would only use if you can't find the good stuff

EDIT: I don't care much for "non-noble" either, it sounds like Orwellian newspeak: "Double-plus-un-noble"

 

[ThePiper]

I like the non-recreational idea. Tudei seems to be a great choice for pain relief from what I hear. Personally I don't do too well on anything that doesn't come out perfectly yellow on the noble kava test. It makes me numb, depressed, lethargic, etc. I don't mean to bash BKH because they have quality kavas but most of the noble ones I tried did not feel noble and I later saw they came out as "likely adulterated" on the tests. I was ready to give up kava completely until I tried KBR and GHK, which had none of these side effects. People might be turned off of kava if they think Tudei is the "expert level" kava. They will think that is the peak of kava discovery and likely decide it isn't for them.

I like how KBR advertises their tudei. Accent on the strong muscle relaxing and pain treating properties with no mention of it being a fun experience. They do highlight potency but that isn't too misleading, and they mention that it's not true kava technically. Only thing I would add is that it is not typically favored by natives due to the effects. They don't have to say ithe effects are terrible or adverse, but I think simply mentioning that it isn't what the natives drink is a good indicator that it is not part of the "true" kava experience.

 

[verticity]

I like the non-recreational idea. Tudei seems to be a great choice for pain relief from what I hear.
...
I like how KBR advertises their tudei. Accent on the strong muscle relaxing and pain treating properties with no mention of it being a fun experience. They do highlight potency but that isn't too misleading, and they mention that it's not true kava technically.

I appreciate that KBR label their tudei accurately, but they suggest that tudei is the same as piper wichmannii, (wild kava) which is not true. They also seem to imply that tudei is some kind of special, rare variety, which is totally not true.

"Medicinal" would be a good description - in fact, it's the exact description used by Ni-Vanuatu for some tudei-ish kavas.

 

[verticity]

I don't mean to bash BKH because they have quality kavas but most of the noble ones I tried did not feel noble and I later saw they came out as "likely adulterated" on the tests.

It should be noted that Judd has admitted there were some problems with his Vanuatu kavas (melo melo, borogu, borogoru), but that since they were brought to his attention he has made efforts to ensure that they are not adulterated. However, I have not seen recent test results from him or @Deleted User to verify this.

 

[ThePiper]

Yeah, I trust judd but would still like to see the tests as well. I'm sure there are instances where noble cultivars will come up a little orange on the tests due to natural variation, but that's just an assumption on my part.

 

[Gourmet Hawaiian Kava]

Henry, this is a great article you wrote, you put your thoughts down on paper so well. I have to agree that Tudei is not a good kava for the new people that are looking to try kava. Imagine when we did not have Isa in Hawaii, all we had was pure Noble Hawaiian kava, everyone loved kava and had no ill effects but when Isa was brought here that all changed, that is when people started to get bad effects from it.
I remember when I first got some Isa cuttings, I was excited to get it but I did not know anything about tudei kava. Needless to say, I learned real quick about the effects that tudei kava can have and I quickly went back to Noble kava, in fact all the kava experts I know do NOT drink tudei kava.
When I say kava experts I am talking about all the people doing research and writing articles and books on kava. They learned about kava via Noble kava and then they learned to NOT like tudei via Isa a known tudei kava. And like was brought out by a few of our kava forum members, in Vanuatu, they do not drink tudei kava, so why would anyone who wants to experience kava the way they do in Vanuatu or even here in Hawaii, why would they even think of trying tudei kava???? Wait, could it be because of the way it is advertised by the people selling it???? It certainly looks that way to me.
I just can not sell anything other than pure Noble kava, I would not want any of my customers to get any negative effects from kava that I sell, it is just bad business. I will always sell 100% pure Noble kava so nobody has to worry about the quality of kava that I sell.
I want to thank all the members of the "kava forums" for helping to make known the bad effects that one might get from drinking tudei kava.
This is how we educate the people and hopefully the ones that are selling tudei kava will stop, in favor of the real kava, the pure kava, the NOBLE kava.
Aloha nui loa.

Chris

 

[Vekta]

Tudei seems to be a great choice for pain relief from what I hear.

Yeah, I'll give a tudei a 4-5 shell rating. (and I have in the past) and this is why. It's great once in a rare blue moon for this reason. Other than that thought...do not want.

I still have the mystery kava sample I was sent. Haven't touched it since. Haven't had a reason to use it. I'll use my capsaicin cream my dad gave me for pain before I break out the tudei. If I have to do that it means I'm really sore and not gettin up.

 

[Gourmet Hawaiian Kava]

Tudei seems to be a great choice for pain relief from what I hear.

From what I hear so does Papa Kea and Papa Kea is a known Noble kava, why would anyone want to deal with Tudei when you can have Noble and still get the effects you want. Aloha.

Chris

 

[Deleted User01]

Back in the old forum, we would call a Tuday kava, "A Weekend Kava". Meaning that you don't want to deal with the hangover during the work week. For me, Papa Kea is a pain reliever. However the new version with more lateral root also gives it some headiness which is appreciated for us daytimers (and old timers).