What is medicinal kava?
- Thread starter verticity
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verticity
I'm interested in things
I guess I'm not clear on why you say it is medicinal, when there are noble kavas with that chemotype as well. A cursory look at "Origin and Distribution" turns up no medicinal cultavars that are 245---, but several nobles (such as borogoru) and one ceremonial. If you just mean to say it feels heavy, OK, but there is not reason to assume it is medicinal.
Medicinal chemotypes in Origin:
246315
246531
256431
625341
From cultivars:
Rongrongwul
Nidinolai
Malmalbo
Apin
(redundant morphotypes are removed, so I'm not sure if that is exhaustive)
If there is a commonality among the medicinals, it is a high placement of methysticin (6)
Kavas with 245 chemotype (first is Ceremonial, rest are Noble):
Poua
Borogoru
Bumalotu
Ewo
Pualiu
Riki
Medicinal chemotypes in Origin:
246315
246531
256431
625341
From cultivars:
Rongrongwul
Nidinolai
Malmalbo
Apin
(redundant morphotypes are removed, so I'm not sure if that is exhaustive)
If there is a commonality among the medicinals, it is a high placement of methysticin (6)
Kavas with 245 chemotype (first is Ceremonial, rest are Noble):
Poua
Borogoru
Bumalotu
Ewo
Pualiu
Riki
D
Deleted User01
Would boroguru and/or Borongoru be in that medicinal category (245)? Remember, we agreed that reviews are subjective.
verticity
I'm interested in things
Both of those are traditionally used as noble (daily drinking) kavas, so no. They can certainly be used medicinally, but that is not the traditional classification. Also "245" is not what medicinal means...
D
Deleted User01
Ok, so medicinal might be code for something else .... or not. Anyway, we know Shakas gets pain relief.
I know because Kavafied posted it as: 245613 on the KavaForums. (DHM & M both pretty high)
I'm not sure if I refer to 245 chemotypes from out-dated, internet misinformation stuck in my head or because Supreme High Commander Deleted User used to officially title 245xxx as medicinal:
...but you're right, I generally use the term 'medicinal' to refer to kavas that are higher in DHM, feel somewhat like tudei(in a good way), yet test yellow on the acetone test. If you just call these kavas 'noble' these days, it would make people expect a lighter, heady kava and then question it's nobility when it's not. It's a loose definition I have to use without Lebot or a native farmer pointing out a cultivar and assuring me that it's 'medicinal'. I'm aware that nobles can have 245xxx chemotypes, I seek them out.
I wonder where the medicinal classification originated, with the natives or more recently with Dr. Lebot? If it's from the natives, then I imagine they used the same loose logic as me. Only having their subjective effects to gauge, they would feel the heavy almost tudei-like effects, but not experience the more extreme tudei side-effects. This would obviously cause some overlap where the lines are blurred on both ends of the spectrum.
I said medicinal kava has a higher instance of DHM than most nobles, you posted four medicinal chemotypes and 3 out of 4 of them had high DHM. What would happen if you added up all noble kavas and all medicinal kavas, which group would have a higher percentage? I suspect medicinal. Perhaps I'm wrong. If there is never a 245xxx medicinal, fine, but that's already been explained above. I doubt there would be a much of a discernible difference in a blind test drinking 245 noble and medicinal kava.
I notice the first medicinal chemotype you listed was likely used to display that it happens to have a low DHM level. There are oddballs like this in other aspects of kava as well. Somewhere around here there's a big list Lebot(?) put together of K/DHM ratios alongside Noble, Medicinal & Tudei cultivars and in it you can see nobles with tudei level K/DHM ratios, tudei with noble K/DHM levels and medicinal kavas on both sides.
Perhaps I should begin using the term medicinal-like, instead of 'medicinal'. It would certainly be better than scaring people off with the word Tudei-like. I hope this is satisfactory.
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kastom_lif
Kava Lover
Lebot's book "Kava the Pacific Elixir" pretty much agrees with the niVan kava act of 2002.
As for WHY a particular kava ends up in the medicinal category, I can't say. Maybe it's reserved for ceremonial use or tabu except for certain people (mo'i used to be kapu too, you know). It probably comes down to chemotype rather than cultural significance. For instance, bo is fully wild jungle kava, scheduled as such, yet they use it on Pentecost on special occasions.
As for WHY a particular kava ends up in the medicinal category, I can't say. Maybe it's reserved for ceremonial use or tabu except for certain people (mo'i used to be kapu too, you know). It probably comes down to chemotype rather than cultural significance. For instance, bo is fully wild jungle kava, scheduled as such, yet they use it on Pentecost on special occasions.
verticity
I'm interested in things
I guess my point is that I just wanted to clarify that as far as I know this is a noble kava. To suggest that it might be medicinal is to suggest that it is not noble. It is being sold as noble, and the chemotype does not suggest otherwise, since there are noble Vanuatu kavas with that precise chemotype.
I do also wonder about what the traditional medicinal classification really means. I'm just guessing, but I don't know if traditional medicine men in Vanuatu would have considered insomnia an illness to be treated with a "medicine," so perhaps the equation "heavy = medicinal" might not be the case. I mean, when I think "medicinal" that is kind of what my intuition tells me also. But maybe the traditional meaning is different. I just don't know. Likely they are (or used to be) literally used for treating things like infectious diseases, so the pertinent properties could be something other than psychoactive effect?
I do also wonder about what the traditional medicinal classification really means. I'm just guessing, but I don't know if traditional medicine men in Vanuatu would have considered insomnia an illness to be treated with a "medicine," so perhaps the equation "heavy = medicinal" might not be the case. I mean, when I think "medicinal" that is kind of what my intuition tells me also. But maybe the traditional meaning is different. I just don't know. Likely they are (or used to be) literally used for treating things like infectious diseases, so the pertinent properties could be something other than psychoactive effect?
I'm not looking at a list to verify this, but if the list of known 'medicinal' kava chemotypes does, on average, have a significantly higher amount of DHM (and M, as you mentioned) in total, than the percentage of the whole list of Vanuatu nobles...wouldn't it be safe to assume, or at least suggest that DHM has something to do with how most medicinal kavas got classified? Whether or not it has to do directly with the psychoactive effect of DHM or a non-psychoactive benefit of DHM, the result seems the same if DHM ends up typically being higher in the chemotype for either reason.
Point taken on the idea that calling something 'medicinal' kava takes something away from the desired 'noble' title. I think that's wrong, unless there's some info I'm not privy to, but point taken. This actually brings up something I've been trying to point on the forums lately. For all intents and purposes 'medicinal' cultivars ARE noble. Treating them otherwise is unfair. I think more people should understand this precisely for the reason that calling something a medicinal kava should not be tabu like tudei has become. In my opinion, it should be thought of like this: All medicinal kavas are noble, but not all nobles are 'medicinal'.(generally)
...Like every square is a rectangle, but not every rectangle is square.
Medicinal kava has low FK-B levels (the actual difference is negligible), it tests yellow on the acetone test and can have chemotypes similar or identical to known noble kavas. So what's the difference really, apart from ancient tradition declaring 'this plant is this' and 'that plant is that'. It still seems to me that DHM or heavy-but-not-tudei is the main determining factor. I know in the past Vanuatu has banned medicinal kava from export, why do you think that is? Well, I think it was a move in response to the old kava bans. Even though 'medicinal' kava checks out clean on the chemical level (which is more important/empirical than ancient traditional naming when it comes to the (presumed) safety via FK-B levels) Medicinal kava, while apparently as safe as noble, was probably added to the no-export list simply because it's effects were more likely to be mistaken for tudei, or create nausea and extended sedating effects. Vanuatu's or Lebot's goal, was to do what they can to preserve the longevity of a cash crop for the export market. To make sure consumers had the least likely chances of having a bad experience with kava, tudei got put on the chopping block (rightly so, probably)...but medicinal kava got unfairly cut out too, just to play it safe, most likely. This is why I was happy to see the new codex allow for 'medicinal' kavas alongside 'noble', as it should be, unless evidenced otherwise.
Another thing we should consider, is that 'noble', 'medicinal' and 'tudei' are all Vanauatuan classifications aren't they? In that case, technically no other kava in the world is noble, medicinal or tudei...instead they can only be equivalent to them...unless they are a direct clone of a known Vanuatu kava. Of course, we don't stop using the terms when referring to kavas from other regions, because it does help in trying to classify what each kavas effects will probably be like. Take this for example, say a new kava comes on the market from the Marquesas...It's notably potent and heavy but doesn't completely lay you out the next day, the chemotype returns either 246531 (or 245631) and it has a yellow acetone test...is it fair to call this kava a 'medicinal' kava...should we call it 'noble'...even though it's not as clean or light as the usual heady daily kavas. Can we call it any of these things since it's not Vanuatuan? What if we had the same kava, same scenario, but it was from Vanuatu, however, we never knew what plant it actually came from ?
These are just some thoughts flowing through my head...gotta stop now though, cuz it's the kava hour.
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verticity
I'm interested in things
Sure, by any scientific test you could do a traditional medicinal kava would show up as noble. Perhaps they do tend to be heavier. But I actually don't know what they would feel like to drink, because I have never heard of one being for sale commercially. Possibly the distinction from noble is only based on tradition, not effects. I'm not saying 'medicinal' kava is undesirable in the same way that tudei is. Just that it is pretty unlikely that that is what this is, or that anyone who has only drunk commercial retail kava powder has ever even consumed a true medicinal, considering the small number of them that exist. And I do agree that it does not make sense to ban export of medicinal kavas. As you pointed out, it does appear that the law has been changed to allow that. The reason medicinal was banned was probably simply because originally everything technically 'not noble' was banned... I would be curious to try one actually; I just have never heard of one for sale.I'm not looking at a list to verify this, but if the list of known 'medicinal' kava chemotypes does, on average, have a significantly higher amount of DHM (and M, as you mentioned) in total, than the percentage of the whole list of Vanuatu nobles...wouldn't it be safe to assume, or at least suggest that DHM has something to do with how most medicinal kavas got classified? Whether or not it has to do directly with the psychoactive effect of DHM or a non-psychoactive benefit of DHM, the result seems the same if DHM ends up typically being higher in the chemotype for either reason.
Point taken on the idea that calling something 'medicinal' kava takes something away from the desired 'noble' title. I think that's wrong, unless there's some info I'm not privy to, but point taken. This actually brings up something I've been trying to point on the forums lately. For all intents and purposes 'medicinal' cultivars ARE noble. Treating them otherwise is unfair. I think more people should understand this precisely for the reason that calling something a medicinal kava should not be tabu like tudei has become. In my opinion, it should be thought of like this: All medicinal kavas are noble, but not all nobles are 'medicinal'.(generally)
...Like every square is a rectangle, but not every rectangle is square.
Medicinal kava has low FK-B levels (the actual difference is negligible), it tests yellow on the acetone test and can have chemotypes similar or identical to known noble kavas. So what's the difference really, apart from ancient tradition declaring 'this plant is this' and 'that plant is that'. It still seems to me that DHM or heavy-but-not-tudei is the main determining factor. I know in the past Vanuatu has banned medicinal kava from export, why do you think that is? Well, I think it was a move in response to the old kava bans. Even though 'medicinal' kava checks out clean on the chemical level (which is more important/empirical than ancient traditional naming when it comes to the (presumed) safety via FK-B levels) Medicinal kava, while apparently as safe as noble, was probably added to the no-export list simply because it's effects were more likely to be mistaken for tudei, or create nausea and extended sedating effects. Vanuatu's or Lebot's goal, was to do what they can to preserve the longevity of a cash crop for the export market. To make sure consumers had the least likely chances of having a bad experience with kava, tudei got put on the chopping block (rightly so, probably)...but medicinal kava got unfairly cut out too, just to play it safe, most likely. This is why I was happy to see the new codex allow for 'medicinal' kavas alongside 'noble', as it should be, unless evidenced otherwise.
Another thing we should consider, is that 'noble', 'medicinal' and 'tudei' are all Vanauatuan classifications aren't they? In that case, technically no other kava in the world is noble, medicinal or tudei...instead they can only be equivalent to them...unless they are a direct clone of a known Vanuatu kava. Of course, we don't stop using the terms when referring to kavas from other regions, because it does help in trying to classify what each kavas effects will probably be like. Take this for example, say a new kava comes on the market from the Marquesas...It's notably potent and heavy but doesn't completely lay you out the next day, the chemotype returns either 246531 (or 245631) and it has a yellow acetone test...is it fair to call this kava a 'medicinal' kava...should we call it 'noble'...even though it's not as clean or light as the usual heady daily kavas. Can we call it any of these things since it's not Vanuatuan? What if we had the same kava, same scenario, but it was from Vanuatu, however, we never knew what plant it actually came from ?
These are just some thoughts flowing through my head...gotta stop now though, cuz it's the kava hour.
A more likely scenario where the word 'medicinal' comes up is: evidence comes to light that a kava is tudei, so the seller says "oh, erm...it's just medicinal..." by way of an excuse. Again, there is absolutely no evidence that is the case here. I am sure this is simply a heavy noble kava. (I haven't tested it myself, but I trust that Kavafied is doing their own testing) And I guess I also want to discourage people from thinking that the export ban on tudei is somehow depriving them of a full range of types of kava. There are heavy nobles, like this one, available. You don't need to resort to any other category to scratch that itch.
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kastom_lif
Kava Lover
Shakas has a really good point here: higher M and DHM isn't the same thing as high levels of flavokavain-B.
Having drunk both "medicinal" and tudei, I can vouch that they're not the same. The dihydro- end on DHM gives it a long half life but it's not in the same category as wild root or aerials chock full of FKB. High DHM kava might be called "day and a half" kava
And as for what makes an acetone test turn red... I think it would be premature and unscientific to blame ANY compound just yet. FKB's on my list of suspects but ultimately there needs to be more science happening.
Having drunk both "medicinal" and tudei, I can vouch that they're not the same. The dihydro- end on DHM gives it a long half life but it's not in the same category as wild root or aerials chock full of FKB. High DHM kava might be called "day and a half" kava
And as for what makes an acetone test turn red... I think it would be premature and unscientific to blame ANY compound just yet. FKB's on my list of suspects but ultimately there needs to be more science happening.
To expand on this, for the sake of anyone interested, I'll point out some more things that pertain to the 'fuzziness' of certainties regarding kava classifications, available chemotypes, and how the lines can sometimes be blurred between chemotype and which classification of kava it is associated with. For example, a single chemotype such as ~425 (or even something more bizarre or 'tudei-ish') can simultaneously be associated with noble, tudei, ceremonial, medicinal...according to tests Lebot and others have done.
Examples of this that I can point out are:
1) While Lebot says cultivar groups G, H & I represent the most common daily drinking noble kavas, there appears to be occasional outlier chemotypes here and there, in both directions. As listed in the Pacific Elixir book, in Group G, which includes common nobles such as, Borogu, Ahouia & Puariki there also sits Pirimerei with a 254631 Chemotype, right alongside them. We'd typically consider this a tudei chemotype, yet here it sits with the nobles. The same group also shows 264xxx, 265xxx, 245XXX chemotypes among them.
2) Group E, which is not part of the common noble groups and even has a couple "wild" kavas in it, as well as a cultivar named "Tudey"...yet in that group there are a few examples of chemotypes like 246xxx & 245xxx which are typically considered noble or medicinal. One of which is Pohnpei's Rahmwahnger which is usually classified as noble, but appears to be grouped otherwise here.
3) Group F, which includes common Tudei's, such as Isa and 'Iwi, also includes a variety named "Ewo" with a chemotype of 245631 and another known tudei named "Yevoet" with a 264531, a chemotype which can also be found among the noble group. It looks like some chemotypes, like 245xxx and maybe a couple others, can appear in just about every group except the full-on 'wild kava' groups.
Andrew Procyk, who used to be a vendor of Marang-Marang kava also got it tested, with a result of 452631.
Koniak also produced orange acetone tests, pretty much guaranteeing it was tudei and hence being another example of 245xxx chemotype not being solely associated with noble kava.
...just some food for thought.
Examples of this that I can point out are:
1) While Lebot says cultivar groups G, H & I represent the most common daily drinking noble kavas, there appears to be occasional outlier chemotypes here and there, in both directions. As listed in the Pacific Elixir book, in Group G, which includes common nobles such as, Borogu, Ahouia & Puariki there also sits Pirimerei with a 254631 Chemotype, right alongside them. We'd typically consider this a tudei chemotype, yet here it sits with the nobles. The same group also shows 264xxx, 265xxx, 245XXX chemotypes among them.
2) Group E, which is not part of the common noble groups and even has a couple "wild" kavas in it, as well as a cultivar named "Tudey"...yet in that group there are a few examples of chemotypes like 246xxx & 245xxx which are typically considered noble or medicinal. One of which is Pohnpei's Rahmwahnger which is usually classified as noble, but appears to be grouped otherwise here.
3) Group F, which includes common Tudei's, such as Isa and 'Iwi, also includes a variety named "Ewo" with a chemotype of 245631 and another known tudei named "Yevoet" with a 264531, a chemotype which can also be found among the noble group. It looks like some chemotypes, like 245xxx and maybe a couple others, can appear in just about every group except the full-on 'wild kava' groups.
So I guess we can we can say it's clear that a 245 chemotype is not only for nobles, but it's also not only for medicinal or tudei's either. Without truly knowing what cultivar it came from, we can't claim what it is with certainty, because it appears in almost all classes. We can only make our best guess, based our subjective effects.
(Note: no single test result can be considered eternally accurate, whether it be done by Lebot or shown on CoA. There are many variables which can alter the exact numbers. Take for example Group I, above, which consists largely of Fijian and Samoan cultivars with Methysticin being the lead kavalactone, yet all current tests we've seen of these same cultivars rarely show "6" get higher than 3rd or 2nd place)
4) I've seen Tanna's "Marang-Marang" classified as both Ceremonial & Medicinal, such as on this table from the FAO, but people also tend to consider it noble, and it was widely available online prior to Cylone Pam. As per Deleted User's testing, he considered it noble and showed it to have a 245 chemotype. (Also, recall in my previous post that when Deleted User tested my kava(not Marang-Marang) it was deemed "245 - Medicinal".)
Andrew Procyk, who used to be a vendor of Marang-Marang kava also got it tested, with a result of 452631.
Another thing to point out here, for those who don't know this, or those who do know but forget to consider it, is that different testings of the same kava can sometimes flip-flop two numbers in the chemotype that are next to each. Occasionally the percentage of one kavalactone is so similar to the one to it's left or right, that multiple testings can produce slightly different line ups...such as 245 ~ 452.
5) In the case of Koniak, it was shown to have a 245 & 254 chemotype. Judd acknowledged these numbers both before the tudei controversy and after. He also noticed it's ability to flip-flop from 245 to 254 on different tests. Deleted User observed the flip-flop in his own testing as well:
In my attempt to figure out if the classifications we hear about are determined scientifically or traditionally (probably a mix of both these days), I found this passage in The Pacific Elixir that really exemplifies how localized the classifications can be and how arbitrary the classification can be in some cases, since different tribes in different areas would come up with their own distinctions that aren't necessarily agreed up as whole:
...just some food for thought.
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