What makes a kava tincture dangerous?

[Zac Imiola (Herbalist)]

Is there any real reason to believe with the testing we have, that an organic edible alcohol can't be used to create a noble kava extract, using half alcohol half water or a better ratio as determined by future tests ?
I don't understand the danger. If you can ingest micro ? Where is the FKB coming from ? It doesn't just magically appear because you made an extract.

 

[The Kap'n]

This is an awesome question, and I've been wondering myself. What I've seen is that traditional preparations and micronized both contain glutathione, but extracts somehow pass on this and leave it in the starting material. Give "glutathione" a search in the search box. There are a number of posts referencing it.

Edit: THIS thread has a plethora of good information. I miss Infraredz

 

[HeadHodge]

Is there any real reason to believe with the testing we have, that an organic edible alcohol can't be used to create a noble kava extract, using half alcohol half water or a better ratio as determined by future tests ?
I don't understand the danger. If you can ingest micro ? Where is the FKB coming from ? It doesn't just magically appear because you made an extract.

That has always been the same ongoing question I have to. But can never get a satisfactory answer about it.

This is best I've been able to do so far:
Q: What other chemicals are used to extract kava besides water and are they safe?
A:
* Acetone extraction, Thought unsafe by all experts
* Ethanol extraction: Thought safe by some experts, WHO recommends they be avoided.
* CO2 extraction: Thought safe by many experts

Q: Why are other chemicals besides water used to extract kava?
A: Ethanol extraction is inexpensive and easy to do, this is why it is so common. CO2 extraction is complex and expensive, but it does carry the advantage that CO2 is not required to be listed in the ingredients of a product, where alcohol must be listed. Ethanolic extracts have the additional problem of actual alcohol content in varying degrees, where CO2 extracts have nothing but kava. Both methods modify the KL balance to some degree, and both also extract molecules that water does not.

Q: Are kava products that use other chemicals beside water safe?
A: Organic solvent and CO2 kava extracts are generally deemed safe but contain other molecules that aren't extracted by water. No one really knows how safe or unsafe these additional substances may be.

 

[HeadHodge]

@Mrbinx69, if you dig up any good info, please let us know and I'll be happy to update our Kavapedia with it.

 

[blindy107]

I just hate using them. The hard bite of grain alcohol doesn't sit well with me.

 

[Zac Imiola (Herbalist)]

Using 50 50 alcohol to water ratio would extract all the glutathione ... I'm gonna do this, using 50% alc. Using traditional soak and knead. Heating the alcohol water mix up to 130 degrees. Once I'm done with the full extraction I can evaporate off just a tiny bit of alcohol or add some more depending potency.
Using ethanol would leave behind glutathione. That's where this gets tangled... extracts and tinctures in my opinion are different. Mainly because as soon as you have an extract ( alcohol or solvent evaporated ie co2) your automatically knowing they used pure solvent ... because you don't want the water "contaminating it" and causing evaporation to be severely restricted and almost impossible... so there's a huge difference here. We have pure solvent no water for extracts. But with an intact tincture we have water availability which done right should contain the glutathione. In the proper dosage I don't know? But as a traditional kava consumer as well, I'm not to worried as I get plenty of it through that. Which aids in the saftey. Mixed with lack of daily use. Aka I would prolly use this as much as I would toss aND wash... a quick easy CHEAP way to use kava. Not for sale just personal use.
This method could also (if proven to be safe) allow fresh kava to be experienced to some degree by a larger population. It's very moisture would prolly contain a good amount of glutathione and you could prolly increase the alc% to compensate for the water from fresh kava.

 

[The Kap'n]

One thing to look out for is if your skin gets dry and itchy instantly, stop taking it. I tried an alcoholic tincture of what was said to be noble kava only. It dried out my skin faster than it gave me any effects. Seriously it was if somehow they managed to ONLY extract the offending molecule that makes your skin wither up and leave.

 

[Zac Imiola (Herbalist)]

Haha definitley.
Making it at home with 100 %known noble kava and some ever clear will be a perfect comfort net.
I'm gonna do the water extract and kava extract seperate and mix them . To not upset the polarity of the alcohol .
This should replicate the traditional prep in water without the kavalactones. As they will have already been imbued into the alcohol.

 

[verticity]

So does CO2 extract glutathione?

And about the glutathione theory--because it is a theory--it seems kind of strange: can it really "balance out" the "bad effects" of other things in the kava? Why did nature arrange it so that there is precisely enough glutathione per FKB to neutralize the FKB? It's like drinking a poison with the antidote mixed in, which would be a pretty precarious situation if you get the ratios wrong. There must be a natural variability in glutathione levels in various cultivars. Has FKB ever been shown to cause liver damage in any animal (or human) study, or is it's purported harm theoretical? And glutathione is essential for liver function...but it happens to be synthesized by the liver, because it is part of normal liver function. A deficiency of glutathione (due to being an unfortunate mouse who is genetically engineered so that it's liver can't produce it) will cause liver problems/failure, but does drinking kava (if the glutathione is removed from it) actually cause a deficiency of glutathione in the human liver? Is there any evidence that extra glutathione actually "protects" the liver?

I don't know; I admit I haven't read all the papers, but the whole "glutathione neutralizes FKB" thing just sounds kind of suspicious to me.

 

[The Kap'n]

So does CO2 extract glutathione?

And about the glutathione theory--because it is a theory--it seems kind of strange: can it really "balance out" the "bad effects" of other things in the kava? Why did nature arrange it so that there is precisely enough glutathione per FKB to neutralize the FKB? It's like drinking a poison with the antidote mixed in, which would be a pretty precarious situation if you get the ratios wrong. There must be a natural variability in glutathione levels in various cultivars. Has FKB ever been shown to cause liver damage in any animal (or human) study, or is it's purported harm theoretical? And glutathione is essential for liver function...but it happens to be synthesized by the liver, because it is part of normal liver function. A deficiency of glutathione (due to being an unfortunate mouse who is genetically engineered so that it's liver can't produce it) will cause liver problems/failure, but does drinking kava (if the glutathione is removed from it) actually cause a deficiency of glutathione in the human liver? Is there any evidence that extra glutathione actually "protects" the liver?

I don't know; I admit I haven't read all the papers, but the whole "glutathione neutralizes FKB" thing just sounds kind of suspicious to me.

I'd look at this post by infraredz.

 

[verticity]

I'd look at this post by infraredz.

That's a good post. For example this article
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2992378/
Presents some disturbing evidence about the liver damage that FKB might cause, but it also contains this table

The paper does not say how the "water extraction" is done. Is it kneaded in a bag, and is the FKB and KL content of all the suspended particles measured? Or is it extracted the same way as with the other solvents: agitated and then centrifuged and the liquid on top decanted? The latter method will produce a very weak solution, which appears to be the case. Now it is interesting that the FKB/KL ratio is 0.06 in the acetone extract, but it is a factor of 10 smaller in the water extract. But nobody actually drinks "water extract", they drink mud containing everything that is in the root.

Another interesting thing is: clearly the relative solubility of FKB is lower than KLs in very polar solvents (water), than in semi-polar solvents (acetone, alcohol). What does that suggest about CO2? CO2 is a non-polar solvent. If the trend continues one would expect there to be more FKB in CO2 extract than in alcoholic extracts. Do vendors of extract products measure FKB? I don't see that in ROH's COA. They probably should measure that.

So, I don't know, I am thoroughly confused now, and fully admit that I am not an expert on this stuff. Just asking questions here.

 

[Zac Imiola (Herbalist)]

And do we know this tested root is noble ?
I don't see how there could be that much FKB in noble root. Based on what I was saying unless all of it is in the fibers then micro would surely cause FKB ingestion . Which we know doesn't happen

 

[Zac Imiola (Herbalist)]

With this as well ... look at the drastic difference in KL being held by ethanol vs water... but the saftey of water.. we would need the right water to alc. Ratio to create the polarity that pulls out the most alc vs least FKB if it's even there in those quantitys.

Looking at this chart will help alot actually thanks @verticity

 

[The Kap'n]

I'm with you @verticity. I've never seen a full answer either way in regards to the CO2 extracts.

Also, if we're looking at extractions we would only be looking at the starting materials KL/FKB ratio?

I think the money's going to be with the person who is successful at extracting only FKB from kava. Perpetual Nobility™ (not to get the FKB, but to get the kava without the FKB)

 

[Alia]

Consider some relatively new research to support the importance of traditionally prepared, water based kava beverage, whether dry or fresh root/stump pulp or powder– Jerome Sarris University of Melbourne has published some studies on kava. To quote from his Speaker Abstract for the KavaCon 2015 Conference from last July- “our previous and current research has been performed to address the 2007 WHO (World Health Organization) recommendations which advised for research work to involve water-soluble rootstock extracts of select cultivars”. Also worth finding published work from PHYTOTHERAPY RESEARCH 29: 582-590 (2015) which deals in part with the benefits of non-kavalactone active components in kava present in aqueous beverage. As I read it they mean prepared by "kneading in a bag" like nut butter strainer.

 

[HeadHodge]

.

In the table you posted you notice that as the FKB goes up so also does the Lactone amounts too. Didn't do the math but they sorta look proportional to me no matter which you use for extraction. So maybe it just shows that one is more efficient than the others to extract?

 

[CactusKava]

That's a good post. For example this article
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2992378/
Presents some disturbing evidence about the liver damage that FKB might cause, but it also contains this table
View attachment 4687

The paper does not say how the "water extraction" is done. Is it kneaded in a bag, and is the FKB and KL content of all the suspended particles measured? Or is it extracted the same way as with the other solvents: agitated and then centrifuged and the liquid on top decanted? The latter method will produce a very weak solution, which appears to be the case. Now it is interesting that the FKB/KL ratio is 0.06 in the acetone extract, but it is a factor of 10 smaller in the water extract. But nobody actually drinks "water extract", they drink mud containing everything that is in the root.

Another interesting thing is: clearly the relative solubility of FKB is lower than KLs in very polar solvents (water), than in semi-polar solvents (acetone, alcohol). What does that suggest about CO2? CO2 is a non-polar solvent. If the trend continues one would expect there to be more FKB in CO2 extract than in alcoholic extracts. Do vendors of extract products measure FKB? I don't see that in ROH's COA. They probably should measure that.

So, I don't know, I am thoroughly confused now, and fully admit that I am not an expert on this stuff. Just asking questions here.

I think that's a good question @Deleted User might be able to help answer. Garry, have you ever/do you ever test for FKB quantities in your testing? If we sent you samples of our extracts, could you measure FKBs in each type?

 

[Zac Imiola (Herbalist)]

It does show that yes. I get what your saying. thats its not that ethanol technically pulls more out just that it pulls more in relation to water not KL content

 

[CactusKava]

In the table you posted you notice that as the FKB goes up so also does the Lactone amounts too. Didn't do the math but they sorta look proportional to me no matter which you use for extraction. So maybe it just shows that one is more efficient than the others to extract?

They're not proportionate at all. Water has WAY less FKs than the other 3.

 

[Zac Imiola (Herbalist)]

This is the difference

Water = 0.0042918454935622 (.2/46.6)
Ethanol = 0.0588556851311953 (32.3/548.8)

idk if this is the correct way of doing it but i assumed if they were equal exactly then these numbers would be the same lmao! somebody please correct my formula