Your experience with kava??

[Gourmet Hawaiian Kava]

Hi everyone, I was thinking about kava, all kinds of kava. Noble, tudei and kava adulterated with tudei. My questions are---
1: Did you ever drink a known tudei kava that made you sick and if so what was your experience?
2: Did you ever drink a noble kava and get sick and if so what was your experience?
3: Did you ever drink an unknown kava and get sick and if so what was your experience?
Thanks to you all in advance. Aloha nui loa.

Chris

 

[Kojo Douglas]

1. Yes, it was awful. It was more than Tudei - it was a wild Tudei that was probably dug up in the jungle. It made my eyes bounce from side to side and I felt dizzy, very sick. I've also drank moderate amounts of Isa and not had any negative side effects.
2. Absolutely. I've overdone Noble many times. The effects are a lot like a little bit of Tudei. Dizziness, double vision, panic.
3. See #1. I don't know what some of the stuff was that I drank. But it felt like poison.

 

[Zentri]

My experience with kava is probably at best not like most people ... Super super long story slightly less long; growing up my mother was always interested in alternative healing/medicines and in the mid '90s she would talk to the manager of the most local health food store, actually an older hippy type of guy who was very knowledgeable for the time, especially considering this was the mid to late '90s and a rural area of North Carolina (oh boy..)

During the times that Hurricane Floyd, Frannie, or Francis came through, not sure which one, my mother had anxiety from Floyd which I believe was the first and asked the manager of the health food store if he had any suggestions for things like anxiety/stress and he recommended kava.

Of course this being the time/place it was, they only had kava tincture and it was most likely "NOW" brand, with the old school brown glass dropper bottle and orange label.

She bought some and I at the age of 7-8 or so recall us getting in the car at the health food store and before driving off my mother put a whole dropperful of the kava tincture on her tongue, grimaced at the flavor/taste and a couple minutes later driving she remarked in the most calm, serene voice " A bomb could go off right now and I'd be fine ", in such a chill voice that I'd never heard her use lol.

It was definitely somewhat striking to me at the time but I knew she had bad anxiety about the hurricanes (at one point our town was basically entirely flooded in and parts of the roof of our house collapsed so she had good reason)

Even at that age I also knew it had grain alcohol in it because I read it, my parents were completely sober at the time and didn't drink at all, not even a glass of wine or a beer once a year etc, so again to see my mother so relaxed was pretty interesting/funny.

Then after she learned more about it, if I or my siblings were having anxiety I recall a few times she would give us a little bit in some juice, so I was accustomed to the flavor/taste/numbing and effects at a young age.

She only gave it to me a couple times but I definitely remember it and may have even snook a few dropperfuls into my drinks at times.

Then at a somewhat older age, maybe 12 or so I became more interested in it, by this time we had moved to Florida, we never had much money and the tincture was all that was ever available and it was always $15+ so we rarely had it, but I remember at the age of 14 introducing kava to my best friend when we both split an entire dropperful, a believe 1oz and poured it into our coffee lol.

Of course around that time I read how alcohol could extract the liver damaging aspects and the people who had liver damage in European countries, but still I didn't know anything about Tudei or where to get kava powder.

Around this time, a local health food store, now long gone, was selling kava "nibs" of such, small pieces of basal root bark, again unknown origin but I assume Vanuatu by how spicy it was. There was times I would chew these but they were very dry and hard and the effects NOWHERE near as strong as the lateral kava root pieces I got from realkava recently.

I couldn't make a drink with them because they were basically as hard as dried pieces of wood lol, basically impossible to grind.

Then a few years later I found www.mountainroseherb.com and that they sold kava, all their other herbs were amazing so I trusted their kava, only had a pound on two separate orders and it was basically micronized which I didn't know at the time, basically impossible to strain because it just clogged the strainer lol ... so I didn't really use it that much but I did make a few everclear tinctures with it myself and even gave that to a few people.

Also mountainroseherb sold kava root chunks and after finding that out I'm almost 100% sure that would be the source of the kava root chunks I mentioned buying at the health food store years ago because they look the same in the photo and not too many people sell them plus this health food store sold A TON of bulk herbs at good prices.

I want to say I never felt side effects or tudei like effects from ANY of this, not dermo, not itching, no nausea, not anything and no one else I gave any of it did either, so maybe we were just very lucky or didn't have enough dosage .. but I can certainly say drinking a half ounce of that tincture is some STRONG stuff and felt like a muscle relaxer with some serious loosey goosey feelings that I've honestly yet to experience from any real quality noble kava powder.

I do not recommend any of this, I realize it was probably not in the interest of my/others health to consume, especially such large amounts and at a young age, unknown quality/nobility kava tinctures, but this is my history with kava and I basically wanted to say these are the things that happen when a consumer doesn't have ready access to quality products and information, they can end up doing potentially harmful things unknowingly and we all know that big pharm kinda helped that along in the 90s by pushing kava way too hard when they couldn't keep up with demand/quality.

Then just within the past year I finally joined this site after lurking here a few times over the years and realizing I wanted to get back into kava, for about two years there I wasn't consuming/thinking about kava because I had surgery on my colon and had some pretty hard time recovering and honestly still am, but luckily kava does not bother me, at worst it will just make me have looser stools but I think it does that to everyone

As I said, super super long turned slightly shorter, but this is basically my kava history, hopefully at least one person can gleam something from it!

Chris, may I ask (and sorry if it's already mentioned somewhere) were you raised in Hawaii from a young age? Did you try kava there at a younger age considering it's part of the local culture? I know you've been growing it a long time!

I have felt light headed/dizzy from too much noble kava but it seems to be the high kavain strains when I drink them closely after consuming coffee/caffeine which I have a low tolerance for so that is obviously some kind of interaction and not just the kava itself.

Thank you for asking Chris and sorry for the wall of text

 

[ThePiper]

I've gotten very nauseas from noble kavas but never vomited. I've also had mild hangovers from noble but it was most likely from dehydration. With tudei that I've tried I have got stomach pains as well as nausea, and possibly vomited once. I'm not sure if the tincture that made me horribly sick was noble or tudei or stems even. It was pea green when diluted. The most troubling difference with the tudei is the outright pain I've felt in my guts from it rather than just nausea.

 

[Zaphod]

Never had anything put Noble kava. On a few occasions I overdid it with Noble that lead to a cross-eyed, slight nausea, almost overwhelming euphoria, and vertigo like feelings. This was with your Moi microgrind - powerful stuff! However, none of this lasted until the next day. After 5-6 hours it tapered off nicely and I still slept like a baby.
Chris - I am curious about your experiences drinking ISA? Sounds like you still grow it for research purposes. Is it a more "mild" Tudei? I am curious why, with all the great Nobles out there, that folks still seek out and drink the Tudei? It must have something people want.

 

[Kojo Douglas]

Farmers grow Isa because it grows fast and has resistance to pests. Also, Isa doesn't have as many side effects as wild Tudeis. The Isa variety is cultivated, but many of the wild Tudeis that will make you sick are gathered in the jungles and sold to ill-informed vendors. A lot of cheap Kava or Kava at K@ bars is this Kava that is offloaded

 

[Krunkie McKrunkface]

I've had the Kavasseur #2, vertigo and double vision, but I think that was just from having too lage a dose of good kava and that any grog can do this. Luckily I had read enough before this happened to be confident it would pass, which the two times it happened it always does, in 30 - 60 minutes and you just sit back, relax, and wait for it to pass. If I didn't know what was happening, and weren't confident it would soon pass, I could see where I might feel troubled or agitated or even panic. But I find kava to be very trustworthy. The problem wasn't the kava, the problem was me, and I adjusted accordingly.

Now, with the KWK concentrate, there is no "too much" and it seems you can't have bad effects even if you try. If you take more than 2 TBS, it just feels like you had 2 TBS. You don't feel any effects from a larger dosage, either good or bad effects.

 

[Kavashua]

1. N/A
2. Never sick, too spaced out to enjoy the experience but never really any lingering ickiness
3. Yes, supposedly it was an adulterated batch. Felt nauseous and exhausted

 

[sɥɐʞɐs]

I have a lot of experience drinking kavas of all sorts, good and bad. I've purchased unknown kavas off eBay, Craigslist, 'health food' stores, from local islanders living in CA, from random online vendors that go unnoticed and from all the typical known vendors. I've had the majority of these tested and learned that some are noble, some are tudei+aerials, some are noble+aerials some are noble+tudei.

Note: My experience is only reflective of my personal experience, in my body, and shouldn't be assumed to be identical for everyone.​

1) I've had verified tudei mixed with aerials several times and found it very weak and only mildly satisfying. I can only assume they must have been consistently low in kavalactones. I've also had a couple bags of average strength tudei (Koniak & Chiefs Jungle which are probably Isa), but it never made me puke, though it is noticeably heavier right out of the gate and I can feel that pushing it could lead to sickness. Like all kavas I've had, it can give me bloat and/or nausea depending on the dose and the day.

2) I have had just about every noble kava I can get my hands on, and I have certainly been sickened on a few occasions by verified noble kavas. Strength, dose & sediment all seem to play a role on this happening, as well as my pre-existing stomach sensitivity. I've also been completely drained & foggy the following day after some noble experiences. This has happened with things as heady as Mo'i or as heavy as 245xxx 'medicinal' Vanuatu kava.

3) I've been nauseated by kavas of all sorts, including kavas that were unknowns as I drank them. As mentioned earlier, test results have shown them to fall into many categories from good to bad.

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Some things to consider about my data:

• I've consumed vastly more noble kava than tudei kava, which is probably the reason I've personally had more negative experiences with good noble kava than with tudei. If I were to consume tudei an equal amount of days as noble, I assume the negative experience tally would rise significantly on the tudei side in comparison to noble.
• I'm more willing to push the limits of a kava that I know is noble, which can lead to an increased chance of experiencing negative side-effects.
• Micronized or super fine ground noble kava are the leading cause of me getting sick or tudei-like symptoms from noble kava.
• In general, I'm personally very sensitive to kava's side-effects but not very sensitive to it's desired effects. This leads to requiring higher doses, which in turn leads an increased likelihood of GI issues, to which I'm already sensitive to, to begin with.
• For the last year or two ALL kava leaves me varying degrees of lethargic or exhausted the day. Obviously, the heavier and stronger, the more likely this will be. (Though not always) Even still, this is not really comparable to a wretched alcohol hangover.
• My worst experiences are rarely consecutively repeatable, same goes for my best experiences.
• The tudei effect likely has more to do with potency and DHM than the actual Fk-B level that determines a kavas noble or tudei status. So in theory, there could be a low Fk-B noble kava with a 254xxx chemotype that would produce the same subjective tudei effects as an actual tudei, but have very little Fk-B.
• Things certainly aren't* clear-cut, black & white...I mean, 'Iwi kava won high praise at the 2012 Kava Festival. WTF!

 

[Señor Chuggs]

I can answer "yes" to all three of those circumstances. In all cases, "get sick" usually involves a wave of dizzyness and slightly blurred vision immediately after comsuming the final shell... Then a few hiccups and immediate vomit. Then I'm fine. Usually only sick for a few minutes.

This rarely happens with certified Noble, but I've gotten to this point with moi micro, and possibly some others I can't recall at the moment. With moi, I remember a rush of euphoria Immediately after vomiting, but the effects going away quickly... Since I threw up all my kava.... The price of overzealously.

With Tudei, or unknowns that I've come to suspect is Tudei, I don't get the euphoria right after vomiting. The dizzyness gets a little better, but does not go away. Ive been very lathargic the next day.

I think my vomiting is caused by consuming too much root material. I used to get a lot of makas in my drink back when I drank Tudei regularly. With micro, I know the makas are removed, but the root material is still enough to cause irritation when I drink too much.

Tudei sick is a different kind of sick though....

 

[Krunkie McKrunkface]

At the risk of sounding weird, it is weird for me to read about negative experiences with kava.

Isn't it all supposed to be good? It is for me. I don't get nausea or gagging or feel bad or groggy or hangover or anything negative at all (at least not once I worked out what was best for me). It's just this ocean of positivity for me. It's supposed to be good, right?

 

[sɥɐʞɐs]

At the risk of sounding weird, it is weird for me to read about negative experiences with kava.

Isn't it all supposed to be good? It is for me. I don't get nausea or gagging or feel bad or groggy or hangover or anything negative at all (at least not once I worked out what was best for me). It's just this ocean of positivity for me. It's supposed to be good, right?

Key factors for your experience include:

• You're new to kava.
• You only drink 1-4 Tbsp.
• You receive full effects from only 4 Tbsp, this means your body chemistry responds very well to kava at low dosages, therefor you are less likely to develop side-effects.

 

[ThePiper]

Water is a healthy thing to drink but too much and you will vomit or worse.. Try drinking a half pound of kava in one sitting and see how pleasant it is. Also, you probably haven't had tudei kava, which can cause depression and lethargy, as well as rashes. It's great that you haven't had any bad experiences with kava but it would be good to keep in mind that it is not completely without consequences, be it dermopathy, dehydration, maybe kidney stones from the diuretic effects? Just be mindful.

 

[Krunkie McKrunkface]

Key factors for your experience include:

• You're new to kava.
• You only drink 1-4 Tbsp.
• You receive full effects from only 4 Tbsp, this means your body chemistry responds very well to kava at low dosages, therefor you are less likely to develop side-effects.

That certainly could be. I can't imagine wanting anything more than the pure krunk bliss I get from 4 TBS, except for...... taking the makas and making a second wash with 1 TBS fresh added and chasing that with 2 TBS KWK concentrate. The mistake I was making with my kalmikazes was having the concentrate with the first wash, which was so nice it blinded me for a while to the fact that it's better if you have the concentrate with the second wash, that's the key. Oddly, it doesn't happen for me, that extreme bliss factor, if you have 2 TBS concentrate with each of the grog washes. For me the key is straight grog on the first wash, then kalmikaze on the second. And wow, it's something to look forward to. I mean it is for me so far the ultimate in kava heaven, a solid 30 minutes of physical joy and also 60 - 90 minutes of great mellow fun.

I think also for me it could be all quite idiosyncratic, my reaction to kava is tied to a chronic inflammatory condition I have had for the past 50 years, USpA, which has a bizarre variety of symptoms when it flares, which was why I went without a proper diagnosis for decades. Anyway, hard to say for sure after only 4 months of regular kava, but it looks to me like it is totally kicking USpA's butt. e.g. a skin condition on my face that was misdiagnosed for years and for which I was given treatments that just made it worse (because of the misdiagnoses), it has now completely cleared up. Another e.g. every March or April I have a flare up of enthesitis in my lower back or achilles tendon which is extremely painful and makes it almost impossible for me to walk for anywhere from a few days to a couple of weeks: I didn't get a flare up this year. All sorts of other things, too, related to the USpA are gone. 50 years of this, gone! As I say, it's only been 4 months of kava, so it could well be too soon to draw any conclusions. But it is very promising for sure. Even if it's just temporary relief I am immensely grateful to kava for what it has done for me.

As for dermo, yeah, I did get it but it only lasted two weeks, went away on its own without my stopping kava, and since then my skin is better than it has ever been before. Odd.

 

[Gourmet Hawaiian Kava]

Thank you all who posted your experience with kava. I asked these questions because I wanted to show people how noble kava and tudei kava has different effects for the most part. The effects I am talking about is when you drink too much noble kava or if you drink tudei kava.
It is like beer, if you drink just the right amount there is no problems but if you over do it then you get some unwanted side effects.
I guess I can use this analogy for tudei kava, if you drink small amount of vodka it might be okay but too much is certainly bad. You can also look at other things like if you take a regular dose of prescribed pain killers you will be fine but if you take too much you run the risk of getting sick. My point is that kava needs to be understood and treated with respect. You can over do it even with noble kava and because of the make up of tudei kava you can really over do it even with a cup or 2.
I have noticed that if I get sick from drinking "Pure Hawaiian" kava it is from me drinking too fast or even eating too fast after drinking kava.
Kava is a great thing and you need to find your does, the one that works best for you and that way you can fully enjoy kava with great effects.
I guess as with all things, moderation. The good thing is that I only got sick from noble kava 2 times and they were both my fault because of drinking too fast and eating too much after drinking. When I drank Isa and Iwi both tudei kava's. I really hated it, just a small amount made me sick, worst than noble, vomiting, lethargy the next day, stomach pain. I never had that with noble, I might have vomited with noble once but after that things were fine. I have noticed that if I drink only lateral root like what is in the Hanakapi Ai, then I have to watch how much I drink, it is a lot stronger than kava that is mixed with the stump as well as the lateral roots.
I know of one person that says many times he got sick from the Hanakapi Ai and I think it is just too strong for him at his regular dose, I might suggest drinking less or spacing the shells farther apart or even using less of the kava. All of these things factor into your kava experience.
I often tell my customers who ask, try playing around with the dose of kava you use, for example a lot of people do not like to drink so much kava because it makes them bloated. What I do is make my kava extra strong and then I take only 1 or 2 drinks and I am right where I want to be. By experimenting with the dose you will find your happy spot and have nothing but great "WANTED" effects.
Thanks again to you all. Aloha.

Chris