Menu
What's new
By:
Filters

Define Tudei in terms of Kavalactone breakdown?

starscolliding

starscolliding

Kava Curious
I know there is a ton of discussion around Tudei on these forums.

I don't chemically know what it means, though. Can it be defined by the Kavalactone breakdown? Is it just when 2 is a boatload in front of the others?

Is F-B a part of one of the kavalactones or is it a part of 2 or 5? Is it present in low quantities in all Kava?

Sorry - I know Deleted User you will feel that everyone should already know all of this, but it almost all makes sense. I'm almost there.
 
verticity

verticity

I'm interested in things
starscolliding said:
I know there is a ton of discussion around Tudei on these forums.

I don't chemically know what it means, though. Can it be defined by the Kavalactone breakdown? Is it just when 2 is a boatload in front of the others?

Is F-B a part of one of the kavalactones or is it a part of 2 or 5? Is it present in low quantities in all Kava?

Sorry - I know Deleted User you will feel that everyone should already know all of this, but it almost all makes sense. I'm almost there.
Click to expand...
DHK (2) is actually not correlated with tudeiness. Lots of noble kavas have 2 in the first position. Tudeis have a chemotype of 25----. Wild kava (piper wichmannii) has 52---- and is considered undrinkable. That's the kavalactone profile of tudeis. There are other chemicals in kava called flavokavains (such as FKA, FKB), that are in much higher concentrations in tudeis than in nobles, and are suspected of being bad for your liver. They are not a part of DHK or DHM (which are kavalactones), they are separate chemicals (and a separate class of chemicals)
 
Sean D.

Sean D.

Kava Enthusiast
For what it's worth, there's this
ht tp://kava.guru/ask-kava-guru/noble-strain-kava/

I've been told that, in terms of chemotype, that DHM #5 is the one that comes in higher amounts in tudei.
 
starscolliding

starscolliding

Kava Curious
So if you want the heaviest/strongest Noble Kava, then you are perhaps looking for 425xyz? Or maybe 42x5yz?

Deleted User - I appreciate that. That does help. It is a little odd, though, as I would think that if 5 is in the second position, well, what if it is in the first position? Is it perhaps not so much that it is in the second position, but rather total amount consumed? Or maybe there is some magic/synergy between 45axyz as the chemotype that makes it bad?

And, just so I understand Flavokain-B just apparently decides to be around when there is a lot of 5, it is somehow co-processed by the plant to be there when there is a lot of 5?

So in a axyz5 we are very very sure there is not F-B or is this just something we are 'pretty sure' about.

I'm pretty familiar with the effects of 4, 2, 5, is there any good resource written up for the effects of 1, 3 and 4? No one ever talks about those.
 
starscolliding

starscolliding

Kava Curious
Cool, yeah, I have some chemistry background and decided I couldn't quite correlate what I know of chemistry and what I was hearing here in general. Eventually there should be some very clear statement based on a chemical process of what is Tudei and what isn't. What you've said definitely helps, and I guess the science isn't completely done yet, just like most things in biology.

One more direct question, and it is okay if we don't know this yet or not - but is it really just total amount of 5 consumed or is it how/where the 5 is in the structure and other factors? Because I would think there would be xx5xxx that aren't Tudei and if you take enough of them you will get a huge 5 load which will cause two day effects.

Also, just to say, I certainly get a 2nd day effect from taking a lot of GHK (i.e., Mahakea) all the time. You just have to take enough. I feel very relaxed in the morning and slightly sedated for some hours, not too long. I see this as a positive thing, btw. So by Tudei we don't just mean 2nd day effects, I think we mean either really strong two day effects, or we mean that 'some of the Kava's that are strong enough to effect you on the 2nd day are also high-naseau and high F-B/F-A and should be avoided'.

To be clear, I have no problem with the reports that you and Chris from GHK have given that the natives don't do it at all and that it is bad. That is fine. But my analytical mind is just wondering exactly what makes it bad. It could be 'only too much 5' (which you could also get from taking mountains of Noble over a whole day), it could be F-A/B, it could be F-A/B along with too much 5, and it could be some other unknown factor. Just saying that I'm wondering what that is exactly. Thanks!
 
starscolliding

starscolliding

Kava Curious
Deleted User - here is a chemical answer from one of your other posts:

"The recent review commissioned by WHO/FAO (Abbott, 2014) has identified that besides the six major kavalactones (the active pharmacological components) alkaloids and flavokavins are also present. The metabolism of kavalactones is reasonably well understood and involves cyctochrome P450 2D6, which has the potential for polymorphism. Kavalactones can also inhibit some P450 enzymes, raising the possibility of affecting the metabolism and toxicity of co-medications. There is little evidence for kavalactone-associated in vitro cytotoxicity or in vivo hepatotoxicity in animals. On the other hand little is known about the metabolism of the kava alkaloids or flavokavins. Evidence of significant in vitro cytotoxicity with alkaloids and flavokavins, as well as hepatotoxicity in animals with flavokavins, has been noted and indicates there is a case for minimizing human exposure to these components when kava is prepared for food use such as a beverage. The presence of these alkaloids and flavokavins have formed the basis of differentiation between the Noble and the ‘Two day,’ and wichminni kava varieties "(Lebot and Legendre, 2014).

So it is really the presence of some alkaloids and F (perhaps associated with 5, i.e., if you breed a 5xxxxx then you also increase the alkaloids and F), but regardless he is saying that you test for some alkaloids and F and if they are they you have Tudei and if not you don't. That makes perfect sense from a chemistry perspective, that is a very solid statement.

If you run across what those alkaloids are, that would be interesting to me. Thanks again!
 
KeepOnKrunkin'

KeepOnKrunkin'

Kava Enthusiast
I enjoy technically complex details as much as any intelligent person but to analyze something so trivial as this makes absolutely no sense. I garuantee you the polluted air WE breathe, the genetically modified food we eat. the contaminated water we drink & the blatantly corrupt government(s) we live under are a helluva bigger threat to our health than what species of a pepper plant we consume.
 
Pacifico

Pacifico

Kava Enthusiast
I am sure that the veterans here have already seen some of these websites but I thought I would share them for some of the new people.

www.air.com
www.water.com
www.government.com

Even though the vast majority of anything you find online is BS, I think that these sites are pretty good, mostly because you can't tell me that they aren't. There is this one website I like called www.google.com. All you have to do is type in a word in this box thing and it's EZ livin'.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top