I'm seriously considering giving up kava for good. Here is why.

[nhoeg]

Hello all,

Some time ago, I talked about my skin turning red when drinking alcohol one or two day after kava consumption (alcohol flush reaction). I have dealt with this quiet fine, and my kava consumption has continued on a pretty high level (almost daily) for about a year. But lately, I have experienced some unfortunate things on especially my face (and I have not been drinking alcohol for about a month.) The things I am talking about are similar to the symptoms I experience when I get an alcohol flush reaction when kava is still present in my body. The symptoms are:

Red cheeks and red face in general
Heated face
Dry / itchy / red eyes

I am very unhappy with these symptoms. If it "just" was because of alcohol, like it used to be, I would be fine with it, because the solution to that is just to stay clean a couple of days prior to drinking alcohol. But now, these symptoms are present all the time. My symptoms are exactly the same as those who has the illness called "rosacea" (look it up on google). It bothers me a lot, and I blame kava for it 100%. I have been drinking some quick kava (instant) lately every night (my first time drinking instant), and maybe it has created all this mess? We know that instant kava is harder on the skin than trad. prep.
I'm very curios (and anxious) about the following: Is it possible that kava, like some medication does it, can trigger an illness like rosacea? My super-anxious mind keeps telling me this. Or is it just simply allergy? I have had a lot of food allergy since I was a kid, but the symptoms were never like this.

What do you guys think? I can find very little information about the connection between kava and rosacea, but a lot of information about kava combined with general skin issues (dermopathy etc.) - But I do not think this is kava-dermo. My skin is not dry or flaky. It is just pure red - and only on my face! I have been through a lot of stress lately, because of exams, and maybe that has something to do with it?

Anyways, all this is just me thinking out loud. It is very hard to find exact information about stuff like this, so I thought maybe some of you have experienced the same, or have any knowledge about rosacea, red skin-issues combined with kava etc.
I have not been drinking kava for 2 days now, and my cheeks are still abnormally red - maybe time will make it better? I really hope so.
Either way, this just tells me that kava is a bad thing for me. I hate saying this, because this root has given me so many positive things. But if this is the general outcome of drinking kava, I am done with it forever.

 

[TheKavaSociety]

A very small % of kava users seems to be mildly allergic to it. Their skin gets red/itchy or swollen even after just one session (of any type of kava). It's just their body chemistry. Most of them seem to be generally allergic to various things, so I assume that their immune system is generally sensitive. Perhaps you are one of such people.

In general people are much more likely to experience skin problems when they consume tudei and/or do not filter their kava properly. I don't know what kava you've been drinking. Are you sure it's pure and noble?

Also, it seems that you are generally anxious. The worst thing you can possibly do when you experience any kind of health problems is to google your symptoms. Google will show you the most extreme, weird illnesses you can possibly imagine. Feeling tired when you wake up? Cancer. Your skin's a bit itchy? Bed bugs. Weight loss? Tapeworm. A bit tired during the day? Heart problems. Pale skin? Aids. etc, etc.
If you are seriously concerned about your health do yourself a favour and visit a qualified medical professional. Do not try to self-diagnose using google as it will inevitably make you feel more anxious, paranoid and miserable.

All the best,

Henry

 

[nhoeg]

Hi Henry. You are right on your thoughts on searching on the Internet. I am well aware of this, and it has created unnecessary anxiety in me - but that's just how I am I guess.

Anyways. Speaking of allergies. This could indicate, that I am a part of that 1 percentage, but my symptoms still doesn't qualify compared to yours. I don't get "allergic reactions" when drinking kava. (Like at the time of drinking it). I have been drinking trad. prep. for about a year with very few "in-session"-issues.

I used to only drink noble from GHK. The last couple of weeks I have tried GKE Quick Kava for convenience when studying for exams.

 

[TheKavaSociety]

Hi Henry. You are right on your thoughts on searching on the Internet. I am well aware of this, and it has created unnecessary anxiety in me - but that's just how I am I guess ;-).

Anyways. Speaking of allergies. This could indicate, that I am a part of that 1 percentage, but my symptoms still doesn't qualify compared to yours. I don't get "allergic reactions" when drinking kava. (Like at the time of drinking it). I have been drinking trad. prep. for about a year with very few "in-session"-issues.

And are you sure your kava is pure, noble, etc?

Anyway, I would still suggest getting in touch with a medical professional. You might imagine you've got some medieval disease triggered by kava when in reality you just eat too many french fries or got allergic to your neighbour's lizard.

 

[KrunkJunkie]

Hey nhoeg, I know how you feel, I had the same symptoms whenever I drank BKH's 11 Year Waka, even if it was just 1 Tbsp. I convinced myself that I was just allergic to kava and could never use it, of course at that point in time that was the only kava I had on hand. I ended up quitting for 3 months before I said "Screw it, I want to experiment" so I ended getting on here and pouring through post after post of anything I could find on "adverse/allergic reactions" to kava and of course most of it pertained to Tudei. I can't remember who said or where it was located, but basically the user said that sometimes micro or instant just doesnt jive with some people. I ended up ordering the sampler pack from KWK that consisted of his medium ground Boronguru, Pouni ono, and two of the mini kava concentrate drinks. I found none of the medium grinds affected me in any way at 1 Tbsp each, and the concentrates didnt either. So I waited a week and flushed my system and then tried the 11 year waka again using just 1 Tbsp, I hydrated properly, followed all the rules and boom, it started with hot cheeks, followed by itchiness on the face, hot ears, and my whole face just was really pinkish red and warm. It was not a good feeling, and it lasted the rest of the day, and subsided slowly over the course of 3 days roughly. So, maybe you are just really sensitive to the root particles like I am? I use a 200 micron nut milk bag and then dump through a 25 micron filter bag when I use root, I avoid instant and micros like the plague because I dont want to feel that awful heated feeling again. Of course thats just my input, I dont want to say its right or wrong or not or if it is what the problem is, but like Henry said, you should probably stay away from Google, Ive worked myself into a tizzy before trying to find symptoms of things on Google. Hope this helps ease your nerves a bit! :]

 

[Steve Mariotti]

You've been to the doctor? To a dermatologist? Have you ruled out non-kava causes medically?

 

[SelfBiasResistor]

Based on the details, it sounds like it might not be kava caused but it's possible it could be irritating an existing condition....

Definitely see a dermatologist. And I wouldn't mention kava if it were me. Make them check good for known medical causes and make sure they don't just blame the herb that they don't understand.

A side note, I have had some odd symptoms that I blamed on kava in the past. At this point I'm sure it wasn't the kava that's causing it but the kava does seem to make it worse sometimes (unknown cause).

 

[kavayo]

I agree on consulting a physician, but there are also two red flags here: the switch to instant, and studying for exams. Instant and micro tend to cause dermo more often than medium grind, and stress can definitely increase symptoms.

I was going to ask about stress increase. This alone can cause these symptoms. Back during a tough time in my life where I was juggling an abusive relationship (I wasn't the abusive one) and a plate full of work I got this really bad rash on my right ankle that would literally start itching if someone told me some bad news in the businesses. Went to the doctor and he told me it was stress and I should consider making some serious changes or my health would continue to decline fast. I was under 30 at the time so it scared the shit out of me. Within a year I got divorced, sold my businesses and the rash went away within a month.

 

[TheKavaSociety]

I agree on consulting a physician, but there are also two red flags here: the switch to instant, and studying for exams. Instant and micro tend to cause dermo more often than medium grind, and stress can definitely increase symptoms.

Why would instant cause more dermo? Proper instant contains nothing more than dehydrated kava resin and hence should be the equivalent of a very carefully strained, fresh kava. In my experience proper instant is very smooth and benign.

 

[nabanga]

I have had these exact syptoms twice, in drinking kava most nights since 1995, and I found it was due to me using an old stash that I put in what I thought was an airtight plastic storage vessel, but wasn't. It was quality Pentecost Boronguru, but was old and poorly stored, so was probably mould contaminated. I went to work the next day with a beetroot face and very itchy scalp.

It only happened with that batch. Chuck yours away and buy some med grind, and do trad prep. It's the real way to drink kava...

 

[rayken]

i get it every now and then. i can not say it is a certain kava or vendor that does it...it just happens sometimes to me. i remember one time i put away a 10oz bottle of kalm concentrate and when i looked in the mirror i couldnt believe what i saw. it looked like i had been sunburned badly all over my face, especially under my eyes. the next morning it was gone. like i said sometimes i get red and blotchy and other times i dont. i ALWAYS feel dry after kava though. i wouldnt say i get dermo but if i dont stay consistent with putting on lotion and chapstick my skin and lips hate me

 

[nhoeg]

Thank you for all your replies. I would love to see a medicinal professional, but because of the holidays my doctor isn't available until after new year.
I can't really figure out if it has gone better. It has now been 4 days. One thing I find really weird, is that my skin gets red if I gently scratch it with my nails. I figured this out when I was taking a bath. The redness then disappears 5 minutes after the scratching. Its like a small area of the skin that get's intense vasodilation for a small amount of time. I can even "draw" my own name on my legs with this! This is apparently because the kava is still somewhat present in my system. Anybody who knows how long it takes before kava and it's side effects gets out of the body?

Anyways I don't think the above mentioned thing is dangerous. It is just very weird. It seems like kava, for some people(perhaps mostly white Northern Europeans?), really does something weird to the blood underneath the skin. For me, the easiest way to explain it, is that the blood gets pressured closer to the skin and therefore the skin turns red.

 

[nhoeg]

I have had these exact syptoms twice, in drinking kava most nights since 1995, and I found it was due to me using an old stash that I put in what I thought was an airtight plastic storage vessel, but wasn't. It was quality Pentecost Boronguru, but was old and poorly stored, so was probably mould contaminated. I went to work the next day with a beetroot face and very itchy scalp.

It only happened with that batch. Chuck yours away and buy some med grind, and do trad prep. It's the real way to drink kava...

Hey nhoeg, I know how you feel, I had the same symptoms whenever I drank BKH's 11 Year Waka, even if it was just 1 Tbsp. I convinced myself that I was just allergic to kava and could never use it, of course at that point in time that was the only kava I had on hand. I ended up quitting for 3 months before I said "Screw it, I want to experiment" so I ended getting on here and pouring through post after post of anything I could find on "adverse/allergic reactions" to kava and of course most of it pertained to Tudei. I can't remember who said or where it was located, but basically the user said that sometimes micro or instant just doesnt jive with some people. I ended up ordering the sampler pack from KWK that consisted of his medium ground Boronguru, Pouni ono, and two of the mini kava concentrate drinks. I found none of the medium grinds affected me in any way at 1 Tbsp each, and the concentrates didnt either. So I waited a week and flushed my system and then tried the 11 year waka again using just 1 Tbsp, I hydrated properly, followed all the rules and boom, it started with hot cheeks, followed by itchiness on the face, hot ears, and my whole face just was really pinkish red and warm. It was not a good feeling, and it lasted the rest of the day, and subsided slowly over the course of 3 days roughly. So, maybe you are just really sensitive to the root particles like I am? I use a 200 micron nut milk bag and then dump through a 25 micron filter bag when I use root, I avoid instant and micros like the plague because I dont want to feel that awful heated feeling again. Of course thats just my input, I dont want to say its right or wrong or not or if it is what the problem is, but like Henry said, you should probably stay away from Google, Ive worked myself into a tizzy before trying to find symptoms of things on Google. Hope this helps ease your nerves a bit! :]

Hey guys. Thanks. How long did it take for these things to disappear when you experienced them?

 

[nabanga]

Mine was just a day. If it's kava it shouldn't hang around much longer than that. You haven't been to Sierra Leone recently have you?

 

[nhoeg]

Mine was just a day. If it's kava it shouldn't hang around much longer than that. You haven't been to Sierra Leone recently have you?

Nope.

 

[violet]

I posted a little about this in another thread, but it sounds more like some histamine intolerance than kava directly. Depending on the degree of intolerance and causative factors, histamine can take a while to break down and be eliminated. As long as there is any excess in the body you will experience symptoms of it.

The body builds up histamine as if catching it in a bucket. As long as it gets broken down and eliminated faster than the bucket fills up there are no symptoms. But overflow the bucket and you get symptoms like flushing and dry eyes. If you are continually consuming histamines or histamine releasers the bucket can be perpetually overflowing or take a very long time to "empty," which means you're at risk for a reaction every time you fill it to excess. Since there are so many, many everyday foods that affect histamine it is very easy to maintain high histamine levels.

Histamines are eliminated a few different ways. I think kava could directly affect it by enzyme inhibition in the liver especially when experiencing increased flushing with using alcohol after kava.

You could review everything you are ingesting and try eliminating foods containing histamines and histamine releasers for a while. If that's the issue the elimination should allow the body to clear histamine much quicker, allowing you to see what is going on.

 

[Zac Imiola (Herbalist)]

Try making an infusion of stinging nettle .
It's a potent antihistamine .
Use 1 ounce to a quart of water. Let it sit in a mason jar with boiling water and cap screwed on over night . Strain and drink.

 

[nhoeg]

I posted a little about this in another thread, but it sounds more like some histamine intolerance than kava directly. Depending on the degree of intolerance and causative factors, histamine can take a while to break down and be eliminated. As long as there is any excess in the body you will experience symptoms of it.

The body builds up histamine as if catching it in a bucket. As long as it gets broken down and eliminated faster than the bucket fills up there are no symptoms. But overflow the bucket and you get symptoms like flushing and dry eyes. If you are continually consuming histamines or histamine releasers the bucket can be perpetually overflowing or take a very long time to "empty," which means you're at risk for a reaction every time you fill it to excess. Since there are so many, many everyday foods that affect histamine it is very easy to maintain high histamine levels.

Histamines are eliminated a few different ways. I think kava could directly affect it by enzyme inhibition in the liver especially when experiencing increased flushing with using alcohol after kava.

You could review everything you are ingesting and try eliminating foods containing histamines and histamine releasers for a while. If that's the issue the elimination should allow the body to clear histamine much quicker, allowing you to see what is going on.

Violet, that is a very relevant and informing post - thank you. I sure hope you are right. I have had eczema since I was a kid, and I have applied some of my ointment (Protopic) on the red areas on my face. I can feel it burn, like it usually does with eczema when this ointment is used, this tells me that it could be some allergy-inflammation-thing (which is in the same league as histamine-intolerance). I'm only drinking water and vegetable juice (and eat fruit aswell) for 2-3 days, and see if it can do something.

Violet, do you know if histamine-intolerenace is worsened by stress? Because I am sure that this has a lot to do with my stress because of exams aswell, as @Deleted User suggested. And, would taking antihistamines like Benadryl help it?

@Mrbinx69 Thanks for the tip. I'll give it a try.

 

[violet]

Stress can potentially worsen anything, it really throws the body out of whack. You may want to look up what foods contain histamines/histamine releasers. There are a lot of fruits and vegetables that do. My worst offender after alcohol is spinach, with avocadoes, citrus, and legumes close behind.

Meat can potentially be high in histamine, it starts building as soon as an animal dies. Seafood can be really bad. Leftovers build histamine after cooking, best to freeze for eating later on.

I went for years having no idea I had this issue. At first I thought it was rosacea or adrenal issues, but didn't worry too much since it would come and go. My symptoms got so very much worse over time as I continued eating stuff that gave me reactions.

Benadryl might help with some symptoms. I used a combination of Claritin (am) and Zyrtec (pm) for a little bit and enjoyed being symptom free during that time. Just know that antihistamines are a band-aid and continuing to ingest things that cause you to release histamine will contribute to inflammation and potentially antagonize the immune system.

If you eliminate histamine foods for a while, you'll give your body a break, the chance to clear out the histamine and stop having reactions. Once the "bucket is empty" you may find you can go back to eating normally. It's finding the balance of how fast your body can break down what you're putting into it. If you get flushing or other reactions the bucket filled up too fast and you need to cut back the offending foods.