toss and wash

[24601]

I've read mixed things. Is toss and wash effective? More effective/less effective than traditional prep? I didn't have enough kava left to make any traditional prep so I poured the last crumbs of my Mahakea and Mo'i bags into a cup and tossed and washed.

Just waiting to see if I'll feel anything. It was maybe a tablespoon, maybe a bit more.

Things I know from this forum: Might have been a bad idea considering my allergies. Might make my stomach upset.

 

[kavadude]

It is more effective, in the sense that aqueous extraction is bound to leave some kavalactones behind. When tossing and washing, you are also consuming everything else in the root that isn't necessarily included in aqueous extraction: fiber, starch, and other compounds.

I wouldn't do it, but it's not going to make you obscenely sick or anything. There is no data on what long term toss and wash might lead to, since it's not part of traditional culture and there are no studies on it.

 

[24601]

It's not something I'll do regularly. I just wanted to see if I could feel something with the tiny bit I had left, not sure when I'll be able to order more. (fingers crossed, might get an interview for a new job this week)

 

[Jonathan]

Yeah you might notice some GI upset. Fwiw, if you're going to toss and wash, I would run it through a kitchen strainer just to get out the larger fibers so it doesn't do a number on your gut. Let us know how you feel afterwards...

 

[verticity]

Like kdude said, it is more potent, but more likely to induce explosive flatulence. Don't light any matches, and stay away from electrical sparks.

 

[24601]

Yikes. All it did was put me to sleep for an hour or two. And my allergies actually look better, but not miraculously better.

Probably won't toss and wash again, it's nowhere near the experience I like.

 

[Bubba Bula]

Have you tried the boiling method? I'm thinking that would be preferable to toss and wash and is supposed to extract the most kavalactones (other than consuming everything).

 

[verticity]

Yikes. All it did was put me to sleep for an hour or two. And my allergies actually look better, but not miraculously better.

Probably won't toss and wash again, it's nowhere near the experience I like.

Probably a tablespoon once in a blue moon won't hurt, but, yes, if I did that on a regular basis, I could probably actually fly around propelled by my butt exhaust.

 

[Zac Imiola (Herbalist)]

Hahaa I toss n wash if I'm at work and don't have a strainer. But I use considerably less. I use a teaspoon and some black tea with milk... this provides me with a tiny rush of euphoria and energy and tons of farts! Like alot... hahah. It makes my skin feel more dry after and ya it's a rare occasion thing. Don't worry about it but don't do it everyday ahha.... personally I think it's a be great way to get over RT Ecspecially if your worried about preparation skills being a factor.

 

[sumguy]

It is more effective, in the sense that aqueous extraction is bound to leave some kavalactones behind. When tossing and washing, you are also consuming everything else in the root that isn't necessarily included in aqueous extraction: fiber, starch, and other compounds.

I wouldn't do it, but it's not going to make you obscenely sick or anything. There is no data on what long term toss and wash might lead to, since it's not part of traditional culture and there are no studies on it.

I'm still wondering how this is any different than micronized?

 

[kavadude]

I'm still wondering how this is any different than micronized?

It isn't, by much. Some micronized vendors remove the coarse fibers which has little in the way of kavalactones and is a source of potential GI upset, but frankly micronized still causes excessive side effects for me and I don't enjoy it.

 

[Zac Imiola (Herbalist)]

The hard fibers that get removed are what cause the stomach upset. So only the finest particles I believe are allowed into the micro.. which would prevent the stomach upset. This is just my theory. I bet someone else can elaborate better on it and even prove me wrong.

 

[verticity]

I'm still wondering how this is any different than micronized?

There are two differences: The coarse fibers ("makas") are removed from micronized (for GHK and Kava Kava R Us at least). But also, for all micronized kavas, they are ground much more finely than regular "medium grind" powder. So that the average particle size is much smaller. So for most people, micronized can be tossed and washed. (Alas, I am not one of those people--micro gives me bad gas pains.)

 

[sumguy]

There are two differences: The coarse fibers ("makas") are removed from micronized (for GHK and Kava Kava R Us at least). But also, for all micronized kavas, they are ground much more finely than regular "medium grind" powder. So that the average particle size is much smaller. So for most people, micronized can be tossed and washed. (Alas, I am not one of those people--micro gives me bad gas pains.)

My point was that the argument about extra stuff being there that wouldn't normally be extracted should apply to micronized as well.

 

[kavadude]

I think it totally applies. There have been some comparisons of nonpolar solvent extracts and aqueous extracts; but nobody has compared what compounds are present in micronized root that are not present in traditional aqueous preparations. I would very much like to see that happen.

 

[sɥɐʞɐs]

The best Toss & Wash method is to; toss your kava my way and wash your hands of it.

 

[verticity]

I think it totally applies. There have been some comparisons of nonpolar solvent extracts and aqueous extracts; but nobody has compared what compounds are present in micronized root that are not present in traditional aqueous preparations. I would very much like to see that happen.

I suspect the comparisons of organic solvent extracts (including CO2) and aqueous extracts are bogus. This is because non-polar (CO2) or semi-polar (alcohol, acetone) solvents are actually capable of extracting significant amounts of kavalactones into solution, but water is not. Traditional preparation does not involve extracting with water, technically speaking, it involves filtering out particles above a certain size threshold, which are suspended or emulsified in water. These particles contain everything that is in the whole root--good and bad. Now an interesting question--that I don't know the answer to--is if the makas contain a different distribution of KLs and other chemicals than the non-maka parts.

Micronized with makas removed is basically equivalent to traditional prep with a coarse filter, so there are some large-ish particles (enough to upset some of our stomachs), but not so many large and huge particles as there would be tossing and washing. Instant is equivalent to trad prep with a fine filter.

I believe @Deleted User actually did compare Mo'i instant to Mo'i micronized, and found the kavalactone profiles to be the same. That is the kind of experiment you are suggesting.

 

[kavadude]

Yes, it does force resins containing kavalactones into the water. It's not a solution, but its not just the smaller solids getting into the water. He did compare instant to micronized, but only kavalactone content, not other things e.g. flavokawains, fiber, starch and whatever else is in the root that causes GI upset.

 

[verticity]

Yes, it does force resins containing kavalactones into the water. It's not a solution, but its not just the smaller solids getting into the water. He did compare instant to micronized, but only kavalactone content, not other things e.g. flavokawains, fiber, starch and whatever else is in the root that causes GI upset.

That's probably true. It's probably some of both: droplets of resin, and small particles. I'm not aware if that has actually been studied though. And, yes, it would be very interesting to compare flavokavains, alkaloids, etc also. There is obviously something about micro that makes it harder on my stomach than instant, in my personal experience; whether it is just the size of the particles, or that less fiber is "squeezed out" in making the instant, regardless of the size of the particles, I don't know.