Withdrawals, can they happen?

[The Kap'n]

Restless legs because of missing magnesium? Really? I am not into RLS, I don't know but sounds a bit unrealistic that this is the only reason for it...

Sure enough does. Could also be zinc, but it's more likely a result of loss of electrolytes. Kava doesn't cause RLS in any direct way, but if you drink enough and cause your electrolyte levels to drop, yes, it can certainly lead to something like this.

Bartel1, Sharon, and Sarah Zallek. 2006. “Intravenous Magnesium Sulfate May Relieve Restless Legs Syndrome in Pregnancy.” Journal of Clinical Sleep Medicine: JCSM: Official Publication of the American Academy of Sleep Medicine 02 (02): 187–88. https://doi.org/10.5664/jcsm.26515.

Hornyak, M., U. Voderholzer, F. Hohagen, M. Berger, and D. Riemann. 1998. “Magnesium Therapy for Periodic Leg Movements-Related Insomnia and Restless Legs Syndrome: An Open Pilot Study.” Sleep 21 (5): 501–5. https://doi.org/10.1093/sleep/21.5.501.

Jadidi, Ali, Alireza Rezaei Ashtiani, Ali Khanmohamadi Hezaveh, and Seyed Mohamad Aghaepour. 2022. “Therapeutic Effects of Magnesium and Vitamin B6 in Alleviating the Symptoms of Restless Legs Syndrome: A Randomized Controlled Clinical Trial.” BMC Complementary Medicine and Therapies 23 (1): 1. https://doi.org/10.1186/s12906-022-03814-8.

Marshall, Nathaniel S., Yasmina Serinel, Roo Killick, Julia M. Child, Isabelle Raisin, Callum M. Berry, Tea Lallukka, et al. 2019. “Magnesium Supplementation for the Treatment of Restless Legs Syndrome and Periodic Limb Movement Disorder: A Systematic Review.” Sleep Medicine Reviews 48 (December): 101218. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.smrv.2019.101218.

Popoviciu, L., B. Aşgian, D. Delast-Popoviciu, A. Alexandrescu, S. Petruţiu, and I. Bagathal. 1993. “Clinical, EEG, Electromyographic and Polysomnographic Studies in Restless Legs Syndrome Caused by Magnesium Deficiency.” Romanian Journal of Neurology and Psychiatry = Revue Roumaine de Neurologie et Psychiatrie 31 (1): 55–61. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8363978.

 

[BourbonMac]

Hmm, so you think it could be lowering my zinc then?

I regularly take magnesium glycinate or L-threonate, so I'm not deficient there, but I've been out of vitamins for awhile. The cereal I eat has like 90% of the zinc I'd need in one day though, it's full of all the vitamins you'd need. Cheerios oat crunch, this shit is the bomb. But I also used to supplement zinc anyway because I'm anemic with a low white blood count. However I will admit I typically don't take magnesium around when I consume kava because for me personally, it felt as if, perhaps due to the fact that kava acts on VGCCs like gabapentinoids, no?

It could've just been one of those nights it didn't work but this was several nights where I'd taken like 200mg magnesium glycinate and I just felt nothing, stopped it and felt it. I can't really be sure if that's why though because I really didn't try them together all that much. I'm also pretty sure I used to take at least 100mg of magnesium last year. I'm definitely not deficient in that though. I think this might just be a personal thing for me, the fact that I once used diazepam for quite awhile.

Have been off it since August. Initially I started using kava in place of it, it was dangerous. My doctor cold turkeyed me completely, he wouldn't even let me taper because he believed the half life meant no withdrawal. Told me this about Prozac too, holy hell... SSRI withdrawal is bad, but SNRI withdrawal, possibly the worst thing ever. It's like being constantly electrocuted and you're so damn dizzy. I'd been taking 15-20mg but it didn't start that way, though it had been a year and a half since i'd started taking it. I did have gabapentin at the time which likely saved me from seizures as well as kava.

 

[BourbonMac]

Kava is not antidepressant. Reduces irritableness but increases lazyness. Mixed bag.

I gotta disagree with you there, assuming you're serious. Kava typically makes me giddy, chatty, productive, even though it's sedating at the same time. It's what many would call a "chameleon" drug. I've taken cultivators that felt like gabapentin, I've taken some that feel like diazepam, I've taken some that feels like an upper.

 

[BourbonMac]

Sure enough does. Could also be zinc, but it's more likely a result of loss of electrolytes. Kava doesn't cause RLS in any direct way, but if you drink enough and cause your electrolyte levels to drop, yes, it can certainly lead to something like this.

Bartel1, Sharon, and Sarah Zallek. 2006. “Intravenous Magnesium Sulfate May Relieve Restless Legs Syndrome in Pregnancy.” Journal of Clinical Sleep Medicine: JCSM: Official Publication of the American Academy of Sleep Medicine 02 (02): 187–88. https://doi.org/10.5664/jcsm.26515.

Hornyak, M., U. Voderholzer, F. Hohagen, M. Berger, and D. Riemann. 1998. “Magnesium Therapy for Periodic Leg Movements-Related Insomnia and Restless Legs Syndrome: An Open Pilot Study.” Sleep 21 (5): 501–5. https://doi.org/10.1093/sleep/21.5.501.

Jadidi, Ali, Alireza Rezaei Ashtiani, Ali Khanmohamadi Hezaveh, and Seyed Mohamad Aghaepour. 2022. “Therapeutic Effects of Magnesium and Vitamin B6 in Alleviating the Symptoms of Restless Legs Syndrome: A Randomized Controlled Clinical Trial.” BMC Complementary Medicine and Therapies 23 (1): 1. https://doi.org/10.1186/s12906-022-03814-8.

Marshall, Nathaniel S., Yasmina Serinel, Roo Killick, Julia M. Child, Isabelle Raisin, Callum M. Berry, Tea Lallukka, et al. 2019. “Magnesium Supplementation for the Treatment of Restless Legs Syndrome and Periodic Limb Movement Disorder: A Systematic Review.” Sleep Medicine Reviews 48 (December): 101218. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.smrv.2019.101218.

Popoviciu, L., B. Aşgian, D. Delast-Popoviciu, A. Alexandrescu, S. Petruţiu, and I. Bagathal. 1993. “Clinical, EEG, Electromyographic and Polysomnographic Studies in Restless Legs Syndrome Caused by Magnesium Deficiency.” Romanian Journal of Neurology and Psychiatry = Revue Roumaine de Neurologie et Psychiatrie 31 (1): 55–61. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8363978.

So I did have recent bloodwork done and have low iron. Kava contains some iron. Despite getting all the iron I'd need from my food, it's low, and apparently low iron can cause RLS, so maybe that has something to do with it?

 

[The Kap'n]

So I did have recent bloodwork done and have low iron. Kava contains some iron. Despite getting all the iron I'd need from my food, it's low, and apparently low iron can cause RLS, so maybe that has something to do with it?

I think you found your culprit.

 

[BourbonMac]

I'll find out after I run out of micro, which will be early since apparently like 40g vanished. I did make a thread last night that got removed and wasn't sure why, but I think I'd alluded that there was a possibility KWK was doing that on purpose which I doubt. I'm not even sure what other vendors have micronized, if there was some that were cheaper, or something.

Every vendor I've used has come up short (which is only KWK and FVK) and I can only imagine it's got to do with USPS drivers tossing it around. FVK never came up short with medium grind before my last purchase though, but the USPS drivers have been overwhelmed and I'm sure there is a lot of just careless tossing shit around.

Either way, I have still felt some restless legs at times during the day even with iron supplementation which is 365% of my daily value, and I already get over 100% a day in my diet, but I'm just not absorbing it or something. Iron deficiency is only sometimes associated with restless legs, so the fact that it hasn't really improved that makes me question something else.

Regardless I don't really think this was kava withdrawal at this point. Withdrawals from kava are probably no different from quitting cannabis: you miss it. Although some people do actually get real withdrawal from cannabis, they'd tend to smoke like an 8th a day or something which is ridiculous. Mostly lack of appetite, night sweats, bad dreams kind of stuff. You can't even call that a withdrawal when there are so many other worse ones like opioid, benzo, SNRI.