What is the kavalactone content of prepared kava + discussion on prep methods

[Summer]

Is it possible to guesstimate an amount of kavalactones in a one pound bag of medium grind kava? Realizing that many many variables come into play here (strength of kneading, type of kava, washes, etc.), could you give a generic ballpark figure for kavalactone content in say...a pound of Mahakea?

 

[sɥɐʞɐs]

EDIT: as this thread was split from another thread, I'm going to insert some relevant text here that got left behind:​

Supposed pharmacologically recommended doses are usually ridiculously low. Something like 70 mg - 200 mg total. The upper end, 200 mg, might be equivalent to one mild/medium strength shell. That could be effective, for very light stress or anxiety relief, and I guess it's understandable that 'official' recommendations would rather play it safe than sorry...but most kava drinking nations appear to well exceed that dose, rightly so.

In Vanuatu, where it's typically the strongest, I think it's been said that shells can range from about 200-500 mg of kavalactones each. Regular consumption of 2000+ mg per session isn't uncommon. Even in Fiji where this mix is much weaker, the guys drink it for longer stretches which probably makes it equal out to the same overall amount of kavalactones as Vanuatu.

Is it possible to guesstimate an amount of kavalactones in a one pound bag of medium grind kava? Realizing that many many variables come into play here (strength of kneading, type of kava, washes, etc.), could you give a generic ballpark figure for kavalactone content in say...a pound of Mahakea?

My quick answer would be maybe 10,000 mg per pound, give or take a couple thousand.

@verticity could probably work this out pretty good.

 

[Summer]

Hmm ok - so in Vanuatu, they may get 4-5 sessions from a one pound bag...

That sounds kind of like me.

 

[verticity]

My quick answer would be maybe 10,000 mg per pound, give or take a couple thousand.

@verticity could probably work this out pretty good.

Dried kava is about 10% kavalactones, so 1 pound = 454 grams * 0.10 = 45.4 grams or 45,400 mg.

 

[verticity]

For example, Gaia kava capsules each contain 75 mg of kavalactones, and the recommended dose on the bottle is 3 per day. If you extracted with 100% efficiency, you could make about 600 capsules from 1 pound of kava powder.

That probably works out to about half a teaspoon of powder per capsule.

You do need to keep in mind though that when you prepare kava traditionally with water, the extraction efficiency is definitely lower than 100%.

 

[Summer]

So in Vanuatu, they can get 20 strong sessions at 2,000 mg from a one pound bag? That makes it seem like their strong sessions would be 5-6 tbsp., or less.

 

[verticity]

So in Vanuatu, they can get 20 strong sessions at 2,000 mg from a one pound bag? That makes it seem like their strong sessions would be 5-6 tbsp., or less.

Sure, 6 tablespoons will make about 3 strong shells worth.

 

[kasa_balavu]

So in Vanuatu, they can get 20 strong sessions at 2,000 mg from a one pound bag? That makes it seem like their strong sessions would be 5-6 tbsp., or less.

AFAIK fresh/green/undried kava is far more popular than dried/powdered kava in Vanuatu, the latter being almost unheard of in Nakamals.

 

[sɥɐʞɐs]

Dried kava is about 10% kavalactones, so 1 pound = 454 grams * 0.10 = 45.4 grams or 45,400 mg.

Is 45,000 mg the total possible kavalactones if you 'toss & wash' the whole bag instead of knead & strain? Do we have stats on how many kavalactones would actually be consumed from an entire bag that was prepped traditionally? We lose quite a bit, but I can't recall how much, I think I've seen some info on that before.

If I were actually consuming 45,000 mg per bag, then I'd be drinking about 9,000 mg per night, which doesn't sound right.

@Summer In Vanuatu, people would rarely, if ever, drink dried kava powder. In my experience though, when I try to compare potency/effects I got from different fresh kavas in Vanuatu, to the closest equivalent I get with dry powder at home...It felt to me like the typical Vanuatu fresh kava dose was equal to about 8 - 16 Tbsp of dry powder. More often than not, 12-16 tbsp would be the closest proximation, but it can always vary.

 

[kasa_balavu]

Do we have stats on how many kavalactones would actually be consumed from an entire bag that was prepped traditionally? We lose quite a bit, but I can't recall how much, I think I've seen some info in that before.

"Hand prepared kava beverage removes about 15% of kavalactones in the kava, the remaining 85% is in the press cake. The press cake is trash."
- Preparing Kava: Optimizing kavalactone extraction in water. By Gautz, Li, and Bittenbender.

I find that hard to swallow though. 85% wasted? Seems impossible. Maybe we should be using a blender for the second wash if we knead our first wash.

 

[Krunkie McKrunkface]

"Hand prepared kava beverage removes about 15% of kavalactones in the kava, the remaining 85% is in the press cake. The press cake is trash."
- Preparing Kava: Optimizing kavalactone extraction in water. By Gautz, Li, and Bittenbender.

I find that hard to swallow though. 85% wasted? Seems impossible. Maybe we should be using a blender for the second wash if we knead our first wash.

There's really two issues: extracting the kavalactones and how much is bio-available to you.

What's the point in extracting "more" kavalactones if they will just pass through your body anyway?

I suspect there are limits to how much kavalactone content our bodies can absorb from whatever grog we drink, regardless of how much we have extracted. If I drink grog and feel as good as I would want to feel, why should I be concerned about feeling "better" ? I mean, there is no "better."

As for press cake is trash, that's nonense. There's always great stuff ina second wash and good stuff in a third wash. I always do at least a third wash, always. And sometimes fourth and even fifth washes have goodness in them and are worthwhile.

I think the key word here is "optimizing" - what does that really mean?

 

[sɥɐʞɐs]

There's really two issues: extracting the kavalactones and how much is bio-available to you.

What's the point in extracting "more" kavalactones if they will just pass through your body anyway?

I suspect there are limits to how much kavalactone content our bodies can absorb from whatever grog we drink, regardless of how much we have extracted. If I drink grog and feel as good as I would want to feel, why should I be concerned about feeling "better" ? I mean, there is no "better."

As for press cake is trash, that's nonense. There's always great stuff ina second wash and good stuff in a third wash. I always do at least a third wash, always. And sometimes fourth and even fifth washes have goodness in them and are worthwhile.

I think the key word here is "optimizing" - what does that really mean?

I'm not sure if I've seen any data on the limits of kavalactone bioavailability, but I don't think there's any reason to believe we would be anywhere near it at the doses we're drinking. Drink a triple strength batch tonight and you will very much feel the effect of having more kavalactones available to you.

There are more reasons than just 'feeling better', which itself is a valid reason, for wanting optimal kavalactone extraction. If we are truly in the range of 15% KL extraction from our whole kava, then it's simply wasteful to not strive for more efficiency. Kava is expensive, if we had more kavalactones make their way into our prepared beverage, then you don't necessarily need to use them to reach a higher 'high', you could also use them to just extend the number low or average strength sessions you get out of the bag. Also, the kava crop is a slow grower, in limited supply and is susceptible to destruction by cyclone. The more usage we could squeeze out of each plant the better. It would save money & cut waste. I mean, modern solar panels could currently supply us with enough power, but at 20% efficiency, should we just call the technology finished, good enough? I don't think so, we should shoot for 50% and then for 75%...

Don't take this as a knock on you, but whenever these topics come up, you are always speaking from a lightweights perspective, who gets good results from lightweight doses, for whatever reasons you personally drink kava --- but then you try to pitch that as the standard all drinkers should be living by. There is a wide range of reasons people drink, doses different bodies require, doses people simply prefer, funds available to buy kava etc. I'm personally a natural born hard-head from day one, I drink kava both recreationally and to treat mental & physical conditions and have limited funds...more kavalactones will always be better for me. Try going to Vanuatu with bags of dry kava and telling the locals they should all be happy with 4 Tbsp of kava dust.
Being a kava lightweight is a blessing, we hard-head's are jealous. You guys save money and are more consistently satisfied with your grog.

'Optimizing' in that Bitbender study just means trying to get the best possible kavalactone extraction, doesn't it? Or are we going down an esoteric philosophical jag on the true meaning of optimize? If not, perhaps you mean there could be a specific number that turns out to be the most optimal, like 25% might be more optimal than 35% ? Not sure, but I reject both of these directions.

​

 

[Krunkie McKrunkface]

I

Don't take this as a knock on you

No knock taken, as I'm sure there was none intended. After all, these are the KAVA forums, not the anabolic steroid forums, if we can't be mellow and assume the best of each other, what hope is there for the rest of the world?

It's actually worse than you think, I have tested this with 6 varieties of GHK kava. I can take a single TBS, put it in a small bag, knead and strain in a cup of water for 10 minutes, then set aside and use another cup of water with the same bag of root, knead and strain, then chug the two cups and be in kava heaven for about an hour, off of 1 TBS. I only drink more because I want to. I almost always use a cup at a time these days. That might last a day or two, depending on spousal horkage.

Now for the serious stuff: this is almost all speculative as we are in the early days of the science on this, and even the experts don't know much. How many kavalactones are there really? Are there phytokavalactones, like there are phytonutrients in food, tiny things we barely know anything about at all but which have powerful effects on us? We don't know. Similarly, how are kavalactones absorbed and used by our body? We don't know. We know about some receptors but there are probably others we don't know about. We know we can prep the same grog in the same way, same quantity, give it to one person and they are krunked outta their snout and the next person feels nothing at all. So we know that, but what does it tell us?

Similarly what is the mechanism involving quantity of kavalactones? We don't really know. There are some intuitive truths but as you point out in my comments, they tend towards the subjective.

I keep stressing this, but I think we need to keep in mind a distinction between health benefits and immediate feelings. I find it intersting that you mention drinking kava for immediate pleasure and to *treat* issues, by which I take to mean give you good feelings and take away bad feelings. But there's no mention, and almost nobody ever mentions, the thing that kava does best of all: prevent bad things. I'm thinking THAT is where the optimum extraction really kicks in, where the "minor" kavalactones become important. But as you correctly point out, I am just making this shit up and pulling it out of my ass, which I freely admit. Although I would argue there is a place for that even in serious discourse.

 

[verticity]

To get an idea of the amount of kavalactones in prepared kava, a good estimate would probably be to consider the yield you get when you make instant kava. I think the KL% in instant is similar to that in medium grind, approximately, but probably a bit higher since the makas are lower in KLs. So if you know how much instant you can make from a given amount of medium grind, and also the factor by which KL% is enhanced in instant vs. medium grind, that would give you an indication of the percentage of kavalactones you are actually consuming, and I am pretty sure it would be substantially lower than 100%.

And, yes, if you did toss-and-wash medium grind, you would be consuming all the kavalactones in the powder, since they are soluble in the acidic juices in your stomach; but there are good reasons that is not commonly done, primarily the fact that toss and wash tends to make you sick.

 

[sɥɐʞɐs]

And, yes, if you did toss-and-wash medium grind, you would be consuming all the kavalactones in the powder, since they are soluble in the acidic juices in your stomach; but there are good reasons that is not commonly done, primarily the fact that toss and wash tends to make you sick.

I'm not sure if I made it sound like I was asking, or suggesting, we start toss-n-washing medium grind to get all it's kavalactones. If so, I'm definitely not wondering or suggesting that. I think we all understand that method will give you more kavalactones but brings with it negative unpleasant side-effects. However, it does seem like the propensity toward finer and finer medium grinds these days is just that, more raw powder getting through the strainer, resulting in a stronger beverage.

What I really wanted to clear up was the statement about 45,000 mg of kavalactones per one pound bag of kava. In a conversation about the actual amount of milligrams of kavalactones reported to be consumed in Vanuatu shells and their daily total of milligrams, to say a 1 pound bag of kava (@ 10% KL) has 45,000 mg in it, kind of gives the impression that that's the number you'd actually be consuming from the bag. I think Summer took it that way and I initially took it that way. You did subsequently mention that traditional water extraction efficiency is definitely lower than 100%, but that appears to be a major understatement, or perhaps just facetious wording...and I think it could, and did, get easily over-looked.

Sorry to be so fastidious about this, but I truly am just looking for clarity, for myself and any other silent onlookers.
With using kasa_balavu's quote from the Bitbender study that says 'hand-prepped kava extracts about 15% of the kavalactones', I think all the numbers start to line up pretty well. If we push that percentage up to 22%, perhaps because of heated water, more vigorous kneading and doing 2nd washes, then 22% of 45,000 mg = 9,900 mg, which puts it right inline with my original 10,000 mg estimate. Yeah?

I got to that number based on knowing that I generally drink 'Vanuatu strength' mixes and can easily go through a pound in about five days. So since it's been said that 2,000+ milligrams of KL's daily is common in the pacific then 2000 per night times 5 days equals and empty bag and 10,000 mg consumed. So unless I've screwed something up here, which is always possible when me and math are involved. It looks like it all fits, Bitbender's number appears to be correct-ish, Vert's number is the total possible kavalactones in a one pound bag(if consumed whole) and my number is the total consumable kavalactones in a one pound bag after it's been kneaded and strained.

 

[verticity]

I'm not sure if I made it sound like I was asking, or suggesting, we start toss-n-washing medium grind to get all it's kavalactones. If so, I'm definitely not wondering or suggesting that. I think we all understand that method will give you more kavalactones but brings with it negative unpleasant side-effects. However, it does seem like the propensity toward finer and finer medium grinds these days is just that, more raw powder getting through the strainer, resulting in a stronger beverage.

What I really wanted to clear up was the statement about 45,000 mg of kavalactones per one pound bag of kava. In a conversation about the actual amount of milligrams of kavalactones reported to be consumed in Vanuatu shells and their daily total of milligrams, to say a 1 pound bag of kava (@ 10% KL) has 45,000 mg in it, kind of gives the impression that that's the number you'd actually be consuming from the bag. I think Summer took it that way and I initially took it that way. You did subsequently mention that traditional water extraction efficiency is definitely lower than 100%, but that appears to be a major understatement, or perhaps just facetious wording...and I think it could, and did, get easily over-looked.

Sorry to be so fastidious about this, but I truly am just looking for clarity, for myself and any other silent onlookers.
With using kasa_balavu's quote from the Bitbender study that says 'hand-prepped kava extracts about 15% of the kavalactones', I think all the numbers start to line up pretty well. If we push that percentage up to 22%, perhaps because of heated water, more vigorous kneading and doing 2nd washes, then 22% of 45,000 mg = 9,900 mg, which puts it right inline with my original 10,000 mg estimate. Yeah?

I got to that number based on knowing that I generally drink 'Vanuatu strength' mixes and can easily go through a pound in about five days. So since it's been said that 2,000+ milligrams of KL's daily is common in the pacific then 2000 per night times 5 days equals and empty bag and 10,000 mg consumed. So unless I've screwed something up here, which is always possible when me and math are involved. It looks like it all fits, Bitbender's number appears to be correct-ish, Vert's number is the total possible kavalactones in a one pound bag(if consumed whole) and my number is the total consumable kavalactones in a one pound bag after it's been kneaded and strained.

Yeah, this is a good summary that fits with everything we know. My 45,000mg per pound number is an upper bound on what you could extract using solvents like alcohol, but the amount in water extract will be significantly lower, and the above seems like a pretty reasonable estimate of about how much lower it actually would be.

 

[Bubba Bula]

I'm not sure if I've seen any data on the limits of kavalactone bioavailability, but I don't think there's any reason to believe we would be anywhere near it at the doses we're drinking. Drink a triple strength batch tonight and you will very much feel the effect of having more kavalactones available to you.

There are more reasons than just 'feeling better', which itself is a valid reason, for wanting optimal kavalactone extraction. If we are truly in the range of 15% KL extraction from our whole kava, then it's simply wasteful to not strive for more efficiency.

It seems the finer the grind the more kavalactones I can extract, and the finer the grind the more washes are effective. There needs to be added focus on kava grind, and not just the type of kava plant it is or where its from. One pound of a coarse grind will yield less kavalactones than one pound of a fine grind of the very same kava.

 

[verticity]

The confusing thing to me about trying to say anything about what the kavalactone content of prepared kava is is that it's not something you can easily calculate from other things that are known.

The solubility of kavalactones in water is known, and it is very low. KLs are practically insoluble in water. The KLs in your drink are mostly not dissolved in the water, but are in tiny particles, or suspended in emulsified droplets of resin, so the KL content of your drink is actually much higher than you would guess if you just treated KLs as chemicals dissolved in water like something that is water soluble such as salt. Preparing kava by kneading or with a blender is actually a very complex process with a lot of variables, such as the size of the grind, the size of the holes in the filter bag, the force used, the temperature, possibly naturally occurring emulsifying agents, the possibility that what is being made is a Pickering Emulsion, which would mean the degree of emulsification would actually depend on the size of the grind. It's so complicated that really the only way to answer the question: "how much kava(lactones) are in my kava?" would be to actually prepare some kava, dry it out, and measure the KLs.

 

[Summer]

But there's no mention, and almost nobody ever mentions, the thing that kava does best of all: prevent bad things.

I touched on this awhile back in a thread started by another member (I had a deactivated account but it's still under my name).

http://kavaforums.com/forum/threads/so-i-read-this-article-that-states-kava-is-a-relapse.9025/

Regarding my initial question, I just wanted to know how many kavalactones on average are consumed in kava drinking cultures on a daily basis. One of the reasons I choose to drink kava besides what you may read about my Klonopin withdrawal is its known safety for thousands of years in many cultures.

 

[kasa_balavu]

Why I find Bittenbender's 15% extraction hard to believe is that micronized (100%) isn't *that* much stronger than traditional grind.