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Misconception about Hawaiian & Polynesian cultivar diversity (or lack thereof)?

kastom_lif

Kava Lover
Just a thought: if the Lyon Arboretum and Joel Lau were growing ʻawa as botanical specimens, maybe they never drank it. But as botanists, they surely layered it and propagated cuttings over and over again.

If you make a bunch of clones and don't select against somatic mutations by drinking the ʻawa, how long does it take for weird new varieties to appear?

On the other hand, it doesn't make sense that ALL the Lyon and Lau samples have such odd chemotypes. There's no reason to expect 100% of their samples to be mutants without any original Hawaiian cultivars remaining.
 

verticity

I'm interested in things
For reference, here are the morphotypes and chemotypes from the 1999 paper that @Alia mentioned. ( https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF02866720 ) Note that this list includes some cultivars that are not native to Hawaii (Isa, Ava Lea, Rahmedel, Rahmwagner), as well as an oddball one called "wa'a wa'a" that is supposed to be Hawaiian. All the native Hawaiin chemotypes are as expected: 46, 42, 24.

Morphotypes:

1999_morpho.png


Chemotypes:

1999_chemo.png
 

verticity

I'm interested in things
Comparing the above morphotypes, Oahu 236 could possibly be Wa'a wa'a, but the other Oahu's aren't really like anything in the 1999 paper.
Oahu 236, 3111102 ~ Wa'a wa'a, 3111202
 

kastom_lif

Kava Lover
Well those chemotypes sure look a lot more like how Hawaiian kava feels when you drink it.

Based on the morphotype, waʻa waʻa might be papa kea.
 

sɥɐʞɐs

Avg. Dosage: 8 Tbsp. (58g)
Review Maestro
That paper certainly shows Hawaiian samples that fall more in line with what we currently expect, but then it shows Isa as a nice 246xxx, how should we feel about that?
 

verticity

I'm interested in things
That paper certainly shows Hawaiian samples that fall more in line with what we currently expect, but then it shows Isa as a nice 246xxx, how should we feel about that?
If we are discussing the science, we should remain dispassionate and note that the K/DHM value is 1.2, which is within the natural variability of what we expect for Isa. Also notice that the levels of K, M and DHM are all pretty similar, so the [465] in the chemotype 2[465] can switch around in different samples. Only the lateral roots are shown for Isa, so for an apples-to-apples comparison, compare it, for example, with Nene lateral roots: K/DHM = 3.2, or any of the K/DHM numbers of the Hawaiian samples shown. In all of the Hawaiins, the ordering K > DHM is much more solid than in the Isa.
percents.png
 

verticity

I'm interested in things
I'll just throw this out here...

This article from 1948 by Margaret Titcomb
http://www.jps.auckland.ac.nz/document/?wid=2481
has some historical descriptions of the effects that traditional kava drinkers experienced, and there are a couple pertinent passages that are suggestive.

On the one hand, there are a couple places where it is emphasized that there are no after effects felt by kava drinkers the following day, which would suggest purely noble kava:

"The effect of 'awa, then, varied greatly according to the amount taken and frequency. Still leaving it in relative terms, a moderate amount was beneficial, excessive use gradually impaired strength and hastened the debilities of age. The effect on the mind was not harmful, except to dull it when under the influence of an excessive amount, and after moderate drinking no after effects remained."

"In modern times, 1903, Emerson made his own observations of the effect of awa (19, p. 135).

“The Hawaiian is muscular and given at times to prolonged exertion and exposure which induces excessive weariness, and awa by relaxing the muscles and inducing sleep gives him relief. On stopping overnight a few weeks ago at a native house, preparatory to climbing out of Pelekunu valley and over the summit of Kilohana, Molokai's highest mountain, I was surprised in the evening to find my host drinking awa. In the morning we were to start on our wearisome and difficult tramp and here he was making himself stupid with awa. I felt anxious for the result, but I need not have been so, for in the morning he told me that he had had a fine night's rest and felt well prepared for the day's work. The climb proved the truth of his words, for he went far that day, climbing the face of a steep mountain wall over five thousand feet high, where hands as well as feet came into constant requisition, and he carried a heavy burden strapped to his back all the way . . . On the following evening he again took awa, remarking that it would take away the soreness of his muscles and give him a good night's rest. The next morning he was up early, bustling about as actively as usual . . . He told me that the first cup did not make him sufficiently drunk and that in order to get the full benefit he had to take a second, and then when the flame of the lamp seemed to be double, as if two lamps were burning he fell off into a profound sleep, so profound that he did not turn over till morning.” "

But, on the other hand, there is also this, quoting someone named Kamakua in 1869:

“People in the old days liked awa as a means of reducing weight. When a man saw himself growing too fat and subject to illnesses, the best thing was to drink copiously like the gods and like those possessed of a spirit until the skin scaled. Let him look for the potent awa and buy a large quantity, then begin to drink, and eat nothing between meals. Fish and poi were to be eaten only when the cup of awa was drunk. One must not go out in the sun and rain lest the feet crack if wet in water or mud. [Note: Because the skin became thin and dry—Pukui.] The first cup was enough to make one drunk for two days. The day after a man had become intoxicated drinking awa, he would be intoxicated again when he drank awa, when he bathed in sea water or when he ate. This effect lasted two or three days. Then if he took it again his head would grow heavy and his eyes pucker up, and with the third cup the heavy feeling would go down to the chest, and when the cups of awa were continued his skin would begin to scale and he would begin to lose weight. The scales would peel off, then more awa was taken as medicine, combined with a cathartic to act as a double net to clean out the body, and after three, four, or five cups of awa the body became spare.
“Then a pig was sought as an offering for the breaking up of the awa bowl, a feast made, the awa bowl broken, and the drinking of awa was ended and sea water was drunk. The effects of the awa would then cease, the body would be thin, the illness would be gone, and the body recover its fitness.”

So, could this actually be a description of historical use of some kind of medicinal/tudei cultivar in Hawaii? Or is it simply over-dramatic and exaggerated language by the Victorian author? Is it really saying that a single cup of kava could make someone intoxicated for two days, or does the reference to buying a "large quantity" just mean that the dieter stays intoxicated because he keeps drinking lots of kava for a period of time?
 
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sɥɐʞɐs

Avg. Dosage: 8 Tbsp. (58g)
Review Maestro
If we are discussing the science, we should remain dispassionate and note that the K/DHM value is 1.2, which is within the natural variability of what we expect for Isa. Also notice that the levels of K, M and DHM are all pretty similar, so the [465] in the chemotype 2[465] can switch around in different samples. Only the lateral roots are shown for Isa, so for an apples-to-apples comparison, compare it, for example, with Nene lateral roots: K/DHM = 3.2, or any of the K/DHM numbers of the Hawaiian samples shown. In all of the Hawaiins, the ordering K > DHM is much more solid than in the Isa.
View attachment 8481
Yes, we definitely expect Hawaiian kavas to have higher K/DHM values and it seems Isa should always have a low K/DHM value.
Though I'm fairly certain, if we're being honest, no one would expect to see an Isa chemotype be 246xxx. Just imagine Judd trying to tell us his Koniak had a 246xxx chemotype, he would certainly have been called a liar or CoA forger.

I'm just pointing out that it's kind of funny how our expectations are being played with between these two papers. The results in the Pacific Elixir show Isa's chemotype exactly where we normally expect, but, at the same time it also shows there are Hawaiian & Polynesian cultivars that are also high in DHM, which we don't typically expect. This makes us uncomfortable, so then we look at a newer study because it shows Hawaiian cultivars with the more expected high Kavain, low DHM chemotype, but, in this study, Isa suddenly doesn't quite fit the expectation.

I'm not trying to make a claim like Isa must noble and Hawaiian kava can be tudei, so I don't want to see any defensive responses from anyone that try to bend my intent that way. I'm just pointing out what we've been shown.

As for the K/DHM game, yes it's quite consistent, but perhaps not perfectly so. As I've pointed out before, there are K/DHM results from Deleted User and Lebot which blur the lines here too. You happened to choose a Nene result with a high K/DHM result for your example, but I can also find Hawaiian K/DHM results that are in the 1-2 range, and other results, such as orange acetone tests with a higher "better" K/DHM ratio than a yellow acetone test. Ratios aside, there are also plenty of examples of Hawaiian chemotypes with DHM in the 4th position, same as the Isa sample in that more recent paper.
 
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sɥɐʞɐs

Avg. Dosage: 8 Tbsp. (58g)
Review Maestro
I'll just throw this out here...

This article from 1948 by Margaret Titcomb
http://www.jps.auckland.ac.nz/document/?wid=2481
has some historical descriptions of the effects that traditional kava drinkers experienced, and there are a couple pertinent passages that are suggestive.

On the one hand, there are a couple places where it is emphasized that there are no after effects felt by kava drinkers the following day, which would suggest purely noble kava:

"The effect of 'awa, then, varied greatly according to the amount taken and frequency. Still leaving it in relative terms, a moderate amount was beneficial, excessive use gradually impaired strength and hastened the debilities of age. The effect on the mind was not harmful, except to dull it when under the influence of an excessive amount, and after moderate drinking no after effects remained."

"In modern times, 1903, Emerson made his own observations of the effect of awa (19, p. 135).

“The Hawaiian is muscular and given at times to prolonged exertion and exposure which induces excessive weariness, and awa by relaxing the muscles and inducing sleep gives him relief. On stopping overnight a few weeks ago at a native house, preparatory to climbing out of Pelekunu valley and over the summit of Kilohana, Molokai's highest mountain, I was surprised in the evening to find my host drinking awa. In the morning we were to start on our wearisome and difficult tramp and here he was making himself stupid with awa. I felt anxious for the result, but I need not have been so, for in the morning he told me that he had had a fine night's rest and felt well prepared for the day's work. The climb proved the truth of his words, for he went far that day, climbing the face of a steep mountain wall over five thousand feet high, where hands as well as feet came into constant requisition, and he carried a heavy burden strapped to his back all the way . . . On the following evening he again took awa, remarking that it would take away the soreness of his muscles and give him a good night's rest. The next morning he was up early, bustling about as actively as usual . . . He told me that the first cup did not make him sufficiently drunk and that in order to get the full benefit he had to take a second, and then when the flame of the lamp seemed to be double, as if two lamps were burning he fell off into a profound sleep, so profound that he did not turn over till morning.” "

But, on the other hand, there is also this, quoting someone named Kamakua in 1869:

“People in the old days liked awa as a means of reducing weight. When a man saw himself growing too fat and subject to illnesses, the best thing was to drink copiously like the gods and like those possessed of a spirit until the skin scaled. Let him look for the potent awa and buy a large quantity, then begin to drink, and eat nothing between meals. Fish and poi were to be eaten only when the cup of awa was drunk. One must not go out in the sun and rain lest the feet crack if wet in water or mud. [Note: Because the skin became thin and dry—Pukui.] The first cup was enough to make one drunk for two days. The day after a man had become intoxicated drinking awa, he would be intoxicated again when he drank awa, when he bathed in sea water or when he ate. This effect lasted two or three days. Then if he took it again his head would grow heavy and his eyes pucker up, and with the third cup the heavy feeling would go down to the chest, and when the cups of awa were continued his skin would begin to scale and he would begin to lose weight. The scales would peel off, then more awa was taken as medicine, combined with a cathartic to act as a double net to clean out the body, and after three, four, or five cups of awa the body became spare.
“Then a pig was sought as an offering for the breaking up of the awa bowl, a feast made, the awa bowl broken, and the drinking of awa was ended and sea water was drunk. The effects of the awa would then cease, the body would be thin, the illness would be gone, and the body recover its fitness.”

So, could this actually be a description of historical use of some kind of medicinal/tudei cultivar in Hawaii? Or is it simply over-dramatic and exaggerated language by the Victorian author? Is it really saying that a single cup of kava could make someone intoxicated for two days, or does the reference to buying a "large quantity" just mean that the dieter stays intoxicated because he keeps drinking lots of kava for a period of time?
Thanks for not being obscurant with the second story, which sounds a lot like the description of high DHM 'awa. There's no way we can know for sure, but it certainly sounds like it. The first story is nice too, I always enjoy reading old descriptions of kava drinking, but there is no doubt Hawaiians had plenty of noble daily drinking kavas, that's not in question by me or anyone.

The point of this thread is that there might be evidence that Hawaiians(and other Polys) had a more diverse selection of chemotypes than we typically expect...and that 2nd story is a very good clue.
 
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verticity

I'm interested in things
Yes, we definitely expect Hawaiian kavas to have higher K/DHM values and it seems Isa should always have a low K/DHM value.
Though I'm fairly certain, if we're being honest, no one would expect to see an Isa chemotype be 246xxx. Just imagine Judd trying to tell us his Koniak had a 246xxx chemotype, he would certainly have been called a liar or CoA forger.

I'm just pointing out that it's kind of funny how our expectations are being played with between these two papers. The results in the Pacific Elixir show Isa's chemotype exactly where we normally expect, but, at the same time it also shows there are Hawaiian & Polynesian cultivars that are also high in DHM, which we don't typically expect. This makes us uncomfortable, so then we look at a newer study because it shows Hawaiian cultivars with the more expected high Kavain, low DHM chemotype, but, in this study, Isa suddenly doesn't quite fit the expectation.

I'm not trying to make a claims like Isa must noble and Hawaiian kava can be tudei, so I don't want to see any defensive responses from anyone that try to bend my intent that way. I'm just pointing out what we've been shown.

As for the K/DHM game, yes it's quite consistent, but perhaps not perfectly so. As I've pointed out before, there are K/DHM results from Deleted User and Lebot which blur the lines here too. You happened to choose a Nene result with a high K/DHM result for your example, but I can also find Hawaiian K/DHM results that are in the 1-2 range and other result such as orange acetone tests with a higher "better" K/DHM ratio than a yellow acetone test. Ratios aside, there are also plenty of examples of Hawaiian chemotypes with DHM in the 4th position, same the Isa sample in that more recent paper.
Well, sure, just look at the stump of that same Nene plant...I, for one, enjoy discussing the weird contradictions and loose ends
 

Alia

'Awa Grower/Collector
Well, sure, just look at the stump of that same Nene plant...I, for one, enjoy discussing the weird contradictions and loose ends
There exists a DVD video of --1- Vincent Lebot explanation of much of the 1999 paper results and 2- Dr. Qun Yi Zheng's explanation of how he did the testing.
If memory serves me-- it was taken from a Seminar done in Hawai'i by the 501 (c) 3 Association for Hawaiian 'Awa and placed on video cassette then eventually converted to DVD. Chris @gourmethawaiiankava might have a copy-- I do not-- but if he does and would be willing to post the Dr. Lebot part it could help us understand Hawaiian cultivars better maybe??
 

Alia

'Awa Grower/Collector
"Joel Lau", presumably from O'ahu...is this guy known to you @Alia or @Gourmet Hawaiian Kava ?

He could be interesting to talk to about his samples...as well as whoever was running Lyons Arboretum back then.

Edit:
View attachment 8476
...so maybe Joel is on the big island, or at least some of his collection is.
Joel was with the Hawaiian Heritage Project at Nature Conservancy. I think he is mentioned in the Hawaiian 'Awa book. Although I knew him in the 1980's and '90's...even collected 'awa with him in Waipi'o Valley, I do not know where he is these days. This past weekend I learned that some of Lebot's collection is actually still growing at Lyon. It is neglected. We need a very young millionaire who is totally devoted to 'awa and willing to do some research!
 
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D

Deleted User01

When comparing Hawaiian Kava to those from Vanuatua, I feel like the taste is a dead giveaway. There are miles apart in taste. At least when I compare the BOROs to anything Hawiian. Is this the soil that effects the taste or the cultivar itself that has a taste assigned to it?
 

Zaphod

Kava Lover
I'll just throw this out here...

This article from 1948 by Margaret Titcomb
http://www.jps.auckland.ac.nz/document/?wid=2481
has some historical descriptions of the effects that traditional kava drinkers experienced, and there are a couple pertinent passages that are suggestive.

On the one hand, there are a couple places where it is emphasized that there are no after effects felt by kava drinkers the following day, which would suggest purely noble kava:

"The effect of 'awa, then, varied greatly according to the amount taken and frequency. Still leaving it in relative terms, a moderate amount was beneficial, excessive use gradually impaired strength and hastened the debilities of age. The effect on the mind was not harmful, except to dull it when under the influence of an excessive amount, and after moderate drinking no after effects remained."

"In modern times, 1903, Emerson made his own observations of the effect of awa (19, p. 135).

“The Hawaiian is muscular and given at times to prolonged exertion and exposure which induces excessive weariness, and awa by relaxing the muscles and inducing sleep gives him relief. On stopping overnight a few weeks ago at a native house, preparatory to climbing out of Pelekunu valley and over the summit of Kilohana, Molokai's highest mountain, I was surprised in the evening to find my host drinking awa. In the morning we were to start on our wearisome and difficult tramp and here he was making himself stupid with awa. I felt anxious for the result, but I need not have been so, for in the morning he told me that he had had a fine night's rest and felt well prepared for the day's work. The climb proved the truth of his words, for he went far that day, climbing the face of a steep mountain wall over five thousand feet high, where hands as well as feet came into constant requisition, and he carried a heavy burden strapped to his back all the way . . . On the following evening he again took awa, remarking that it would take away the soreness of his muscles and give him a good night's rest. The next morning he was up early, bustling about as actively as usual . . . He told me that the first cup did not make him sufficiently drunk and that in order to get the full benefit he had to take a second, and then when the flame of the lamp seemed to be double, as if two lamps were burning he fell off into a profound sleep, so profound that he did not turn over till morning.” "

But, on the other hand, there is also this, quoting someone named Kamakua in 1869:

“People in the old days liked awa as a means of reducing weight. When a man saw himself growing too fat and subject to illnesses, the best thing was to drink copiously like the gods and like those possessed of a spirit until the skin scaled. Let him look for the potent awa and buy a large quantity, then begin to drink, and eat nothing between meals. Fish and poi were to be eaten only when the cup of awa was drunk. One must not go out in the sun and rain lest the feet crack if wet in water or mud. [Note: Because the skin became thin and dry—Pukui.] The first cup was enough to make one drunk for two days. The day after a man had become intoxicated drinking awa, he would be intoxicated again when he drank awa, when he bathed in sea water or when he ate. This effect lasted two or three days. Then if he took it again his head would grow heavy and his eyes pucker up, and with the third cup the heavy feeling would go down to the chest, and when the cups of awa were continued his skin would begin to scale and he would begin to lose weight. The scales would peel off, then more awa was taken as medicine, combined with a cathartic to act as a double net to clean out the body, and after three, four, or five cups of awa the body became spare.
“Then a pig was sought as an offering for the breaking up of the awa bowl, a feast made, the awa bowl broken, and the drinking of awa was ended and sea water was drunk. The effects of the awa would then cease, the body would be thin, the illness would be gone, and the body recover its fitness.”

So, could this actually be a description of historical use of some kind of medicinal/tudei cultivar in Hawaii? Or is it simply over-dramatic and exaggerated language by the Victorian author? Is it really saying that a single cup of kava could make someone intoxicated for two days, or does the reference to buying a "large quantity" just mean that the dieter stays intoxicated because he keeps drinking lots of kava for a period of time?
That second description sounds like a hell of time. I have noticed my weight going back up lately and bit of the old gut sneaking back in.... might be time for an all out multi-day session with sea water, and a pig gorging feast at the end!
 
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Zaphod

Kava Lover
Joel was with the Hawaiian Heritage Project at Nature Conservancy. I think he is mentioned in the Hawaiian 'Awa book. Although I knew him in the 1980's and '90's...even collected 'awa with him in Waipi'o Valley, I do not know where he is these days. This past weekend I learned that some of Lebot's collection is actually still growing at Lyon. It is neglected. We need a very young millionaire who is totally devoted to 'awa and willing to do some research!
How about 2 out of 4?
 
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