Vendor rankings and reviews on other social media platforms

[SelfBiasResistor]

Maybe they just need to hear it from the right voice. Please voice your concerns. I know how it appears, but I am doing everything that I can to remain neutral in terms of a forum admin and the space we provide here. We absolutely need opposing thoughts. Also, I do my best to answer questions over on reddit too. While yes, there are some people there with some of the old notions of liver toxicity and such but they by and large tend to be extreme newbies who are just starting with kava. Could use help there too. This entire venture has been a community project. We need everyone’s voice.

I believe that you are keeping the platform open to all opinions and I'm glad for that. It just seems like people who disagree with or question the movement rarely challenge or post anymore. That reddit sub on the other hand... I don't know how you could look at it and not think there is collusion with a certain group of vendors (only one of the A grade vendors is not a TK vendor). Maybe there was a lot of extreme newbie activity but even one of the mods was advising someone that tudei and extracts "significantly" increase your chance of liver damage. Neither have been proven dangerous and statements like that imply that even noble may carry risks. It was obvious he was directing the poster away from a specific vendor but it wasn't a responsible way to do it. Especially considering just about every time someone reported a side effect, people were guessing it was tudei -- until the poster mentioned they were drinking KWK, BKH, etc. Anyway, I wanted to point out the confusion caused when you get much of your support by scaring the masses or by vendors making statements that aren't accurate in order to increase their sales or reduce a competitors.

@Edward Sorry to derail and I look forward to the reviews

 

[The Kap'n]

I believe that you are keeping the platform open to all opinions and I'm glad for that. It just seems like people who disagree with or question the movement rarely challenge or post anymore. That reddit sub on the other hand... I don't know how you could look at it and not think there is collusion with a certain group of vendors (only one of the A grade vendors is not a TK vendor). Maybe there was a lot of extreme newbie activity but even one of the mods was advising someone that tudei and extracts "significantly" increase your chance of liver damage. Neither have been proven dangerous and statements like that imply that even noble may carry risks. It was obvious he was directing the poster away from a specific vendor but it wasn't a responsible way to do it. Especially considering just about every time someone reported a side effect, people were guessing it was tudei -- until the poster mentioned they were drinking KWK, BKH, etc. Anyway, I wanted to point out the confusion caused when you get much of your support by scaring the masses or by vendors making statements that aren't accurate in order to increase their sales or reduce a competitors.

@Edward Sorry to derail and I look forward to the reviews

I can’t say I’m totally in agreement with their rating of vendors. Sorta leaves them on the hook if a customer has a poor experience with a vendor they’ve rated as A. I also see what you’re saying about the side effect thing. Usually it boils down to amount, however there are some that are like “I’ve been taking 1/3 of a gram of kava extract and I can barely walk” that may warrant a cautionary comment related to poor quality kava, but you’re right. The comments quickly turn to Tudei. Knowing we’re currently in a hyper-aware consumer climate surrounding tudei, you would think exporters would be far far less likely to knowingly attempt it.

Edit: No disrespect meant to those at r/kava. I love to contribute there. I just know it's been a source of vendor contention for a while.

 

[SelfBiasResistor]

I can’t say I’m totally in agreement with their rating of vendors. Sorta leaves them on the hook if a customer has a poor experience with a vendor they’ve rated as A. I also see what you’re saying about the side effect thing. Usually it boils down to amount, however there are some that are like “I’ve been taking 1/3 of a gram of kava extract and I can barely walk” that may warrant a cautionary comment related to poor quality kava, but you’re right. The comments quickly turn to Tudei. Knowing we’re currently in a hyper-aware consumer climate surrounding tudei, you would think exporters would be far far less likely to knowingly attempt it.

That's part of the confusion. Differentiating between poor quality extracts or whether the effects/side effects are consistent with noble kava, tudei or even mold.

The vendor ratings system clearly puts the TK vendors in a better light than the other vendors with some serious inconsistencies. BKH is in the A list but they list a con that would leave some people to question him or his products. The grade B vendors looks to be a pretty steep step down, including Kavafied and TKR. They get knocked for not posting COAs or lab testing, yet TK vendors don't post COAs or evidence of lab testing publicly or privately. It was made clear to me that the TK sticker covers acetone testing for nobility only. I know KWK does additional 3rd party testing but I don't think they post the results regularly. Holding the same vendors to different standards gives the appearance of collusion. I know you're not involved with that but just pointing it out because I'm sure other people besides me have noticed it. Other than the effect it has on the market and certain vendors who really are putting a lot of effort into supplying quality products, I personally don't care that much since I don't plan to visit the sub.

 

[recentreturn]

There is a big difference between collusion/false-advertising and mob-psychology/public opinion. Precisely because these kinds of forums are open to everyone and we all like to share what we think we know / have heard; it's pretty hard to tell if/to-what-extent there is collusion versus people just repeating what they've heard. Also, there is a difference between advertising and corruption. There is also the "telephone game effect." I thought the list on Reddit was pretty bad; but my mind didn't go immediately to systematic collusion, but to the fact that anyone can make a forum and I don't know how knowledgable they really are. I mean, Kavafied only has three kavas (currently; they created an interesting spot on their website that suggests that might change) and they are all great. Certainly on par with the stuff being sold by people on the A list. But I'm not immediately going to assume that this is evidence of an inter-vendor conspiracy. I'm open to whatever facts come my way; but I'm not okay with a failure to allow that public opinion is fickle and shifting thing, and frequently filled with incorrect ideas. I mean, even if there was some sort of "collusion" somewhere, that could take many different forms, some serious, some unremarkable. And the extent to which such collusion is the real, it still would be unclear how much effect it had vs public opinion and exaggerations that happen over time. Moreover, even if a particular vendor were to have done something that seems questionable on one occasion, that doesn't mean that they are automatically some evil archvillain trying to take over the world. There are just TONS of distinctions that need to be taken into account. Without a clear way to measure such distinctions, it's not okay to tarnish someone's reputation. Stuff like acetone tests and telling about a bad reaction are the kinds of this consumers might do; with better or worse nuance in their interpretations. In short, distintions have to be made and reputations ought to be protected. This is why we have a system of courts where putative wrong-doing can be examined carefully and systematically by those AUTHORIZED to do so. And the accused are PRESUMED INNOCENT even if there remains only ONE REASONABLE DOUBT to the accusation. Of course there's free speech and a free market; but I THINK, my opinion, is that we need clear distinctions. None of us is perfect. So I don't think we have to adopt the dichotomy that either EVERY one has been perfect or we are witnessing a massive international conspiracy. There are just SO many intermediate possibilities.
There's all kinds of foods that either get passed off as healthy or unhealthy, and those with stakes in those industries advertise accordingly. Is coconut oil a heathy superfood or a heart attack in a bottle? Is the FDA colluding with big Pharma and the butter industry to keep us away from the health supporting effect of coconut oil; or is the coconut oil industry involved in a vast conspiracy colluding with scientists and each other in order to fool us into buying their products, all the while knowing it'll give us heart attacks? I have no clue! But my guess is just that no one knows all the facts and everyone has mixed motives for how the emphasis comes out.
Edit: yeah, I'm perpuating being off topic. PLEASE feel free to delete this post, if you think it's for the best. I am looking forward to the reviews and don't want to see this thread get pulled from where everyone can see the review.

 

[kastom_lif]

I can’t say I’m totally in agreement with their rating of vendors. Sorta leaves them on the hook if a customer has a poor experience with a vendor they’ve rated as A. I also see what you’re saying about the side effect thing. Usually it boils down to amount, however there are some that are like “I’ve been taking 1/3 of a gram of kava extract and I can barely walk” that may warrant a cautionary comment related to poor quality kava, but you’re right. The comments quickly turn to Tudei. Knowing we’re currently in a hyper-aware consumer climate surrounding tudei, you would think exporters would be far far less likely to knowingly attempt it.

Those ratings are conservative, to avoid any potential sickness or bad reactions.

Like most of us I've had plenty of kava from low-rated vendors. I used to love Noble Kava/Vanuatu Kava Store until they stopped selling kava Tanna and had stuff spiked with tudei. Even their medicinal marangmarang was good stuff.

The guys who get A ratings seem to be the ones who never compromise. KWK had some Tongan that was too low in KL% a few months ago. Not harmful, but not strong either. He never solid it publicly. @KrunkieMcKrunkface had some and said it was weak but fine.

GHK's ill-fated Vanuatu kava was from a new supplier. Small samples tested good, but when the big shipment came in, it was all spiked with Tudei. Chris took a loss on that stuff and did't try to pass off rubbish kava.

Those are some of the hallmarks of high quality vendors.

But as they say, "C's get degrees". I'm quite happy to sample kava from other vendors. Some other kava customers may not want to take that risk.

Ranking vendors and kava has always been controversial. Back in the day @Deleted User used to have tons of test results here on KavaForums. It must have pissed some people off, 'cause those results are long gone. (Besides, they'd be outdated by now anyway.)

 

[recentreturn]

Those ratings are conservative, to avoid any potential sickness or bad reactions.

Like most of us I've had plenty of kava from low-rated vendors. I used to love Noble Kava/Vanuatu Kava Store until they stopped selling kava Tanna and had stuff spiked with tudei. Even their medicinal marangmarang was good stuff.

The guys who get A ratings seem to be the ones who never compromise. KWK had some Tongan that was too low in KL% a few months ago. Not harmful, but not strong either. He never solid it publicly. @KrunkieMcKrunkface had some and said it was weak but fine.

GHK's ill-fated Vanuatu kava was from a new supplier. Small samples tested good, but when the big shipment came in, it was all spiked with Tudei. Chris took a loss on that stuff and did't try to pass off rubbish kava.

Those are some of the hallmarks of high quality vendors.

But as they say, "C's get degrees". I'm quite happy to sample kava from other vendors. Some other kava customers may not want to take that risk.

Ranking vendors and kava has always been controversial. Back in the day @Deleted User used to have tons of test results here on KavaForums. It must have pissed some people off, 'cause those results are long gone. (Besides, they'd be outdated by now anyway.)

You make good points; but I still don't see how Kavafied or TKR are any more risky than the A list.

 

[Krunkie McKrunkface]

You make good points; but I still don't see how Kavafied or TKR are any more risky than the A list.

AFIC both of those are on my A-list for totally fer sure. Absolutely. A plus, even.

 

[The Kap'n]

It is clear that you have things "wrong" I got some samples in, with COA's and it was great. I loved the kava and was drinking it a lot. When the actual order came in, there was a night and day difference. I had it tested and it was not the same kava I got samples of. It was not good and I would not drink it and I would not sell it. Plain and simple!
Thank you.

Chris

What do you do with that once you've found out it's bad? Does it make good fertilizer?

 

[Gourmet Hawaiian Kava]

What do you do with that once you've found out it's bad? Does it make good fertilizer?

It is too bad but I throw it away. There is nothing else I can do with it. Aloha.

Chris

 

[SelfBiasResistor]

I think it could be used for preparing kava suitable for external application. I know a guy who is working on an anti fungal cream and he reckons png tudei might be a good option for this purpose due to lower cost and high kl %.

Another reason we shouldn't ban or destroy resources that have just not figured out how to properly utilize yet.

 

[kastom_lif]

Another reason we shouldn't ban or destroy resources that have just not figured out how to properly utilize yet.

Just because there's a bunch of poison ivy growing in my woods doesn't mean I need to find a way to utilize it.

On the other hand, you could probably make urushi lacquer from poison ivy, so you're right. Most natural products do have some sort of a use

 

[kasa_balavu]

Another reason we shouldn't ban or destroy resources that have just not figured out how to properly utilize yet.

You've been spending too much time on the web's only reliable, unbiased, trustworthy source for Kava reviews and news
Don't worry, the people of the Pacific Islands aren't going to be losing any kava cultivars. They are protecting their resources, and are quite capable of doing so

 

[Gourmet Hawaiian Kava]

Alright, so the original post with the COA was deleted, so I can't refer to that but in another thread, it was pointed out that the wavelength reading on the Borogu sample COA showed a value of .96nm (which would be considered tudei by Lebot standards but noble by Vanuatu BioSecurity standards).
Clearly you stated that the reason you decided not to sell the kava was because the numbers were off. As you said, you wanted the numbers to be more noble and needed to consult with Lebot regarding the results, not that it had tudei effects, made you sick, etc.

There were several different reasons that I did not want to sell that batch of bad kava. The main one was just as I said. The one you quoted was also a reason. But the fact remains that I did not want to drink it, I did not like it, it was not Noble so, I will not sell it.
It is obvious where you got your kava education. I guess your one of those that thinks I am a miracle worker and can make Vanuatu kava taste like Hawaiian kava. Your looking for problems where there is none, your making something out of nothing.

Chris

 

[SelfBiasResistor]

You've been spending too much time on the web's only reliable, unbiased, trustworthy source for Kava reviews and news
Don't worry, the people of the Pacific Islands aren't going to be losing any kava cultivars. They are protecting their resources, and are quite capable of doing so

I wasn't referring to the wild kava burning, BTW. If it's harder for them to sell (properly labelled) and profit from certain cultivars, they won't have as much incentive to continue growing them.

 

[kastom_lif]

I wasn't referring to the wild kava burning, BTW. If it's harder for them to sell (properly labelled) and profit from certain cultivars, they won't have as much incentive to continue growing them.

P. wichmanii is fertile and grows wild in PNG, Solo and Vanuatu. Tabal, vabu, and malmalbo are all fertile wild types that show up in kava from northern Vanuatu. It's pretty nasty stuff, though it does have a history of use for stretching noble kava on special occasions when people don't mind getting fully cut.

On the other hand, there are plenty of sterile tudei cultivars listed in the 2002 Kava Act that need clonal propagation to survive. Cultivars like palisi, rongrongwul, marino, etc, are scheduled as fully tudei, not even medicinal. Yet they are sterile. Banning them from nakamals and export should take the pressure off, so these cultivars can continue to be cultivated for kastom uses.

The Kava Act does not restrict use of narafala kava outside of the money economy.

 

[rkava]

Bula Kavaforums,

I'd like to point out the reason that the "Recommended Vendors List" exists.

The purpose of the list is to offer a quick and simple guide for noobs who don't know much about kava and are confused about where to start. It was not created for you. If you're on Kavaforums and have an account more than ten days old, you are not the target audience. The list is opinionated. This is made clear in the preamble. We do not claim to be unbiased (we are heavily biased in favor of noble kava and against businesses that associate kava with other botanicals). We just put together a guide to help noobs find good kava and avoid potentially bad kava.

Criticism of the guide does not take into consideration the fact that prior to the guide's existence, our subreddit was flooded with the same repeated discussions on whether vendor X was good, where to buy kava, and all the negative reports of people suffering after having consumed poor quality kava from vendors who showed no commitment to quality.

I was granted stewardship of the /r/kava community when there were 400 of us. There are now 5000 members. We have quite a good number of active contributing members now but for a long time it took quite a lot of effort and a heck of a lot of time monitoring the sub and answering questions over and over again. The vendors list helped a great deal to ease that load.

Allegations of collusion with certain vendors are not new. For what it's worth, I have never received payment in cash or kind from any party regarding anything to do with r/kava. I have received offers of free kava "with no strings attached" but have never accepted them.

For a long time, Category A only had True Kava members in it. Why? Because they were and remain the only vendors certified by a third party. Initially I had hoped that this category would be reserved for certified vendors, but True Kava simply could not handle more vendors, and then there was the problem of personalities. There are humans involved, bridges have been burned, and perhaps some vendors might refuse to participate altogether or not be accepted if they wanted to. So the decision was made to allow non-TK vendors in.

The first non-TK vendor in Category A was KavaTime. Neil reached out to us and presented his case, and someone we trust vouched for him. The next vendor who reached out to us about his position on the list was BKH. We told Judd what he could do to get on the list and a few months later, he started posting COA’s and was made a Category A vendor.

Sidenote: within each category, vendors are randomly shuffled around every month (or when we remember to), so BKH might be at the top of the list this month and GHK next month.

If you’re a vendor who thinks they’ve been mis-categorized, become an active contributing member of /r/kava, and then talk to us. We are human. Ask us what you can do to improve your position. I guarantee that anything we ask you to do will improve your image/sales anyway, regardless of your position on the list.

Thanks for all the feedback in this thread. I’m glad that criticism of the guide seems to be about vendors who should be higher up the list, and not about vendors who should be lower. That at least means that most of you agree that noobs can’t go wrong with the current crop of Category A vendors. I hope I’ve helped you understand why the list is the way it is. If you have further questions, feel free to contact us directly on /r/kava.

Much love to you all of the original online kava community.

 

[SelfBiasResistor]

For a long time, Category A only had True Kava members in it. Why? Because they were and remain the only vendors certified by a third party. Initially I had hoped that this category would be reserved for certified vendors, but True Kava simply could not handle more vendors, and then there was the problem of personalities. There are humans involved, bridges have been burned, and perhaps some vendors might refuse to participate altogether or not be accepted if they wanted to. So the decision was made to allow non-TK vendors in.

This gets to my point. TK isn't a 3rd party. All of the vendors are on the board. When GHK gets in trouble, TK will defend them to the end. They don't really do testing anymore, anyway so this reasoning is ridiculous.

 

[The Kap'n]

Bula Kavaforums,

I'd like to point out the reason that the "Recommended Vendors List" exists.

The purpose of the list is to offer a quick and simple guide for noobs who don't know much about kava and are confused about where to start. It was not created for you. If you're on Kavaforums and have an account more than ten days old, you are not the target audience. The list is opinionated. This is made clear in the preamble. We do not claim to be unbiased (we are heavily biased in favor of noble kava and against businesses that associate kava with other botanicals). We just put together a guide to help noobs find good kava and avoid potentially bad kava.

Criticism of the guide does not take into consideration the fact that prior to the guide's existence, our subreddit was flooded with the same repeated discussions on whether vendor X was good, where to buy kava, and all the negative reports of people suffering after having consumed poor quality kava from vendors who showed no commitment to quality.

I was granted stewardship of the /r/kava community when there were 400 of us. There are now 5000 members. We have quite a good number of active contributing members now but for a long time it took quite a lot of effort and a heck of a lot of time monitoring the sub and answering questions over and over again. The vendors list helped a great deal to ease that load.

Allegations of collusion with certain vendors are not new. For what it's worth, I have never received payment in cash or kind from any party regarding anything to do with r/kava. I have received offers of free kava "with no strings attached" but have never accepted them.

For a long time, Category A only had True Kava members in it. Why? Because they were and remain the only vendors certified by a third party. Initially I had hoped that this category would be reserved for certified vendors, but True Kava simply could not handle more vendors, and then there was the problem of personalities. There are humans involved, bridges have been burned, and perhaps some vendors might refuse to participate altogether or not be accepted if they wanted to. So the decision was made to allow non-TK vendors in.

The first non-TK vendor in Category A was KavaTime. Neil reached out to us and presented his case, and someone we trust vouched for him. The next vendor who reached out to us about his position on the list was BKH. We told Judd what he could do to get on the list and a few months later, he started posting COA’s and was made a Category A vendor.

Sidenote: within each category, vendors are randomly shuffled around every month (or when we remember to), so BKH might be at the top of the list this month and GHK next month.

If you’re a vendor who thinks they’ve been mis-categorized, become an active contributing member of /r/kava, and then talk to us. We are human. Ask us what you can do to improve your position. I guarantee that anything we ask you to do will improve your image/sales anyway, regardless of your position on the list.

Thanks for all the feedback in this thread. I’m glad that criticism of the guide seems to be about vendors who should be higher up the list, and not about vendors who should be lower. That at least means that most of you agree that noobs can’t go wrong with the current crop of Category A vendors. I hope I’ve helped you understand why the list is the way it is. If you have further questions, feel free to contact us directly on /r/kava.

Much love to you all of the original online kava community.

Thank you. We appreciate you coming over to help us more fully understand. I know you’ve taken some heat for that list in the past. Good on you for sticking to your guns.

 

[Zac Imiola (Herbalist)]

A great example of honesty in action
Human as he put it and I agree

 

[Zaphod]

Bula Kavaforums,

I'd like to point out the reason that the "Recommended Vendors List" exists.

The purpose of the list is to offer a quick and simple guide for noobs who don't know much about kava and are confused about where to start. It was not created for you. If you're on Kavaforums and have an account more than ten days old, you are not the target audience. The list is opinionated. This is made clear in the preamble. We do not claim to be unbiased (we are heavily biased in favor of noble kava and against businesses that associate kava with other botanicals). We just put together a guide to help noobs find good kava and avoid potentially bad kava.

Criticism of the guide does not take into consideration the fact that prior to the guide's existence, our subreddit was flooded with the same repeated discussions on whether vendor X was good, where to buy kava, and all the negative reports of people suffering after having consumed poor quality kava from vendors who showed no commitment to quality.

I was granted stewardship of the /r/kava community when there were 400 of us. There are now 5000 members. We have quite a good number of active contributing members now but for a long time it took quite a lot of effort and a heck of a lot of time monitoring the sub and answering questions over and over again. The vendors list helped a great deal to ease that load.

Allegations of collusion with certain vendors are not new. For what it's worth, I have never received payment in cash or kind from any party regarding anything to do with r/kava. I have received offers of free kava "with no strings attached" but have never accepted them.

For a long time, Category A only had True Kava members in it. Why? Because they were and remain the only vendors certified by a third party. Initially I had hoped that this category would be reserved for certified vendors, but True Kava simply could not handle more vendors, and then there was the problem of personalities. There are humans involved, bridges have been burned, and perhaps some vendors might refuse to participate altogether or not be accepted if they wanted to. So the decision was made to allow non-TK vendors in.

The first non-TK vendor in Category A was KavaTime. Neil reached out to us and presented his case, and someone we trust vouched for him. The next vendor who reached out to us about his position on the list was BKH. We told Judd what he could do to get on the list and a few months later, he started posting COA’s and was made a Category A vendor.

Sidenote: within each category, vendors are randomly shuffled around every month (or when we remember to), so BKH might be at the top of the list this month and GHK next month.

If you’re a vendor who thinks they’ve been mis-categorized, become an active contributing member of /r/kava, and then talk to us. We are human. Ask us what you can do to improve your position. I guarantee that anything we ask you to do will improve your image/sales anyway, regardless of your position on the list.

Thanks for all the feedback in this thread. I’m glad that criticism of the guide seems to be about vendors who should be higher up the list, and not about vendors who should be lower. That at least means that most of you agree that noobs can’t go wrong with the current crop of Category A vendors. I hope I’ve helped you understand why the list is the way it is. If you have further questions, feel free to contact us directly on /r/kava.

Much love to you all of the original online kava community.

Thank you for taking the time to come over and post your reasoning for the list. I can't say I fully agree with all of the reasoning, but it is at least a good start and none of the A vendors will steer someone wrong. There are, however, many other good vendors that source perfectly fine and even exceptional kava. Hopefully as folks mature into their roots they will look outside the initial list.