Kava Science Expanding my home lab...

[ApéroNoble]

@Tyler, the AKA endorses BKH and BKH sells kava not knowing if what they are selling is 100% the variety claimed. That seems a bit like the cart before the horse doesn't it? Shouldn't the AKA endorse only vendors who are 100% certain that they are selling consumers what they claim before, not after subjecting folks to such uncertainties.

We've received the most recent batches of Borogu and Melo Melo. I cannot guarantee they are 100% these varieties because they have yet to be sent in for flavokavain and kavalactone testing. I was promised 100% noble, for what it's worth. We will be sending samples to Lebot's lab soon.

Also worth noting is that this shipment is a coarse grind. I just made a some kava with it, and it makes great grog. I've employed some guinea pigs at the kava bar for testing, and they've all liked it. We're hoping the next batch is somewhere between this consistency and the very fine one we had most recently.

In any case, enjoy, and let us know what you think.

"Although all of our kava is believed to be the exact variety or strain advertised, there is the possibility that small amounts of other kava strains are included."

^^^ Also from BKH FAQs page. This to me does nothing toward assurance, small is simply a relative term

 

[Bula Kava House]

I don't have an axe to grind with the AKA. I'm primarily interested in Kava Testing. I'm not here for any other purpose but you are right about one thing, I am skeptical. However a good dose of meaningful written data from a Lab that does TRUE Kava testing would surely cure me of my skepticism. I appreciate the fact that the Kava in question was tested and 14 pages of results were output. And I'm glad to say that the Kava in question had no mercury and other potentially toxic minerals and substances that a generic lab might provide. I believe the lab in question is Microbac Laboratories, Inc. and Debra D. Elliot PHD (Director of Business Development) replied that they DO test nutritional supplements and they DO NOT test Kava root powder at this time. I'll grant you that it is possible that they may have tested the Kava in question as a nutritional supplement. So we got a bunch of pages of test results that do not interest us because they don't do true Kava Testing.

However, Deleted User just mentioned “Australian Certified Organic” and a Kavalactone Assay from the University of the South Pacific as being part of the test results. Could you explain the significance of that and how those results are important to us?

Again, I apologize if my skepticism is miscontrued as chiding the AKA. That is not my intention. I just want meaningful Kava Test Results that test for the chemical properties that are unique to Kava and that are important to all Kava drinkers worldwide. If you could summarize the results of that test in terms of chemotype, Flavokaines, Kavalactones then I would be very grateful.

@HeadHodge, You are absolutely right about two tests being better than one. It would be nice if they somehow dovetailed and they both told us what we want to know.

Microbac tests nutritional supplements, which is what kava is according to the FDA. If you really need it, I can copy and paste a bunch of emails back and forth between Ashley Malchow and me if you really want but for now I'll just paste this correspondence about pricing. I was considering using them for future testing:
Hi Judd,

If you would be testing 20 samples a month the pricing would be as follows:

APC- 13.00/sample

E.coli- 13.00/sample

Salmonella- 30.00/sample

Staph- 24.39/sample

Yeast and Mold- 18.00/sample

As for the other pages you question, the organic certification is just that. I don't see why you need more information. The chemotype results are from the University of Suva, a well respected lab with regards to kava testing. Their results show a chemotype that has never been associated with a tudei kava. A kava with a noble chemotype has never proven to be anything but noble. That means no false negatives/positives. Hope that helps.

 

[Tyler]

A lab need not specialize in testing skullcap, or valerian, in order to tell you whether or not it contains heavy metals or microbiological contaminants. Hence, Microbat labs was used to test this kava. When Dr. Elliot says that they don't test kava, she means that they don't do kavalactone quantification. You're implying that Microbat is totally incompetent and their microbiological and heavy metal results are meaningless simply because they don't perform kavalactone quantification. Again, here we see a perfect example of someone armed only with skepticism taking up the time of PhDs and lab directors simply because they don't understand a single thing about testing botanicals. Not what we need to put our labs through. Since Microbat does not do quantification via HPLC, or in your terms, "test kava", we used University of Suva because well, they are quite well versed in testing Kava... being in the heart of the South Pacific. Could you name a lab that does Kava specific testing that you would say is more qualified than the University of Suva? To take it a step further, we had the Kava tested at the Government of Vanuatu's Food Science Tech lab for HPTLC analysis on FKB levels and to confirm what HPLC already told us, that the kava was Noble beyond Noble. In your opinion which labs would you like to see us use since these don't seem to satisfy your skepticism?

 

[Bula Kava House]

@Tyler, the AKA endorses BKH and BKH sells kava not knowing if what they are selling is 100% the variety claimed. That seems a bit like the cart before the horse doesn't it? Shouldn't the AKA endorse only vendors who are 100% certain that they are selling consumers what they claim before, not after subjecting folks to such uncertainties.




"Although all of our kava is believed to be the exact variety or strain advertised, there is the possibility that small amounts of other kava strains are included."

^^^ Also from BKH FAQs page. This to me does nothing toward assurance, small is simply a relative term

To be 100% certain would require me planting, growing, cultivating, drying, and processing all by myself with no help. No kava vendor does that. We do more than 9 out of 10 vendors to assure that with testing and research , but anybody who tells you they're 100% sure is lying.

*edit: The one vendor who doesn't do more, matches our quality control.

 

[Tyler]

@ObiNouekFoNobl The AKA endorses members who are willing to spend 3 extra dollars per kg to ensure you're not drinking poop and lead. Its really that simple and something that I would assume you'd support. Judds final tests will be compiled in the next week.

While we're at it... to date, can anyone point me to any other vendor who has posted a COA to the forum other than Judd or I.... AKA members?

 

[ApéroNoble]

To be 100% certain would require me planting, growing, cultivating, drying, and processing all by myself with no help. No kava vendor does that. We do more than 9 out of 10 vendors to assure that with testing and research , but anybody who tells you they're 100% sure is lying.

*edit: The one vendor who doesn't do more, matches our quality control.

no need to state 100% certain, some percentages should at the very least be noted, "small" really means nothing or anything

 

[ApéroNoble]

@ObiNouekFoNobl The AKA endorses members who are willing to spend 3 extra dollars per kg to ensure you're not drinking poop and lead.

Surely the AKA does more than ensure we're not drinking poop

 

[Bula Kava House]

@ObiNouekFoNobl I've updated my post. Maybe it will help.
http://www.kavaforums.com/forum/threads/new-borogu-and-melo-melo-in-stock.3574/

 

[ApéroNoble]

now you've done it, wire taps imminent

 

[Tyler]

Good dialogue, it's encouraging to see this happening. @Tyler, I think there's some misunderstanding over my goals and mission here, so I'd like to clear that up. As I said in post #26 of this thread, my work has basically nothing to do with required FDA/cGMP tests, and I fully acknowledge that I'm not qualified to perform them. My prime mission is sharing the benefits of kava with others, and the main thrust of my research and testing is to obtain reliable data on the actual effects of any given kava on the average individual.

Excellent. I support your efforts.

"Thus, the "truth in labeling" campaign - I believe it will help.

I wholeheartedly agree. Consumers should be presented with the facts and have a choice what type of material they want to consume. We will be on the same campaign.

"It shows a chemotype that, while noble, bears no real relation to the claimed cultivar.

The vendor has made his very best effort, aside from flying to the farm and doing a genetic test on the material and comparing it with 500 other known varieties. I would be VERY interested to know the name of the cultivar as well if it is truly not what is stated, because it defies the Acetone test. Hows that for doing something... through lab testing the AKA seems to have found a strain of noble chemotype that turns the acetone test on its head, pretty groundbreaking. We must also bear in mind how Kava varieties have evolved through single generation somatic mutation. One variety can spawn an entirely different variety off from a single branch. I'm not saying this is the case, but I'm saying, that this is how the varieties all evolved to begin with... new variations came from old variations in single generations.[/QUOTE]

"But aside from that, and our obvious disagreements over other substances, I have no problem with you or the actual mission of the AKA. I understand the importance of FDA/cGMP compliance, and encourage its adoption by all vendors.

I think you can agree that in the two years that I have been here, 1. I've not come on here as a vendor selling my Kava to members and 2. I've tried my very best to not engage in any discussions outside of Kava. These were the two concerns that were originally brought up when I became a member here and I have stood by them in good faith.

"I hope this gives you a better idea of my motives, and I welcome any questions you might have.

I support what you're doing. it appears that you're genuinely trying to move forward in the name of progressing and preserving Kava.

 

[Tyler]

So the quote brackets are not cooperating.

 

[Gourmet Hawaiian Kava]

To be 100% certain would require me planting, growing, cultivating, drying, and processing all by myself with no help. No kava vendor does that.

That is funny, I do! I am a vendor, I plant, cultivate, harvest, wash, dry and process my kava, I do have 2 helpers but I am with them all the time and I only have Hawaiian Noble kava growing on my farms. I do commend you for what you are doing to ensure good quality kava since you can not grow your own. Aloha.

Chris

 

[HeadHodge]

So the quote brackets are not cooperating.

I tried to fix them up as best I could.

 

[ApéroNoble]

@ObiNouekFoNobl Judds final tests will be compiled in the next week.

Vendors which don't know what they're selling should begin selling their kava after not before testing. Then consumers should be informed of percentages of adulteration so they may make the decision to buy the particular variety or not.

 

[Deleted User01]

@Judd Rench Thanks, I do see the results are from the University of Suva, I just reread them. I'm still irked by the blacking out of any information that would refer to the Kava or the vendor in question but you have your reasons and I will have to be happy with that. Maybe in the future the A.K.A. can arrange to have a certificate that states the name of the vendor and the kava strain tested. That would be ideal for us Kava consumers.

@Deleted User (A.K.A. Mr. Wizard) when you get your new lab equipment up and running, then please post a detailed Kava Test Result for us so everyone can see what that looks like. PLease post the colorimeter readings as well so we can see how they compare. And please give us the name of the strain and the vendor as well. You may have to get a notary public to sign off on the results for obvious reasons. As time goes, I hope to see a giant spreadsheet with all your results so we can compare the vendors.

As far as Kava testing goes, I know Lebot is the number one authority on that but at this point I feel you are the number 2 authority. So we can use your results to ascertain the nobility of the kava and we can use the Microbac results to make sure we are not ingesting inordinate amounts of Mercury and Boron. As @HeadHodge said, we can use the results from both Deleted User and Microbac to insure our Kava is safe and Noble.

 

[Bula Kava House]

That is funny, I do! I am a vendor, I plant, cultivate, harvest, wash, dry and process my kava, I do have 2 helpers but I am with them all the time and I only have Hawaiian Noble kava growing on my farms. I do commend you for what you are doing to ensure good quality kava since you can not grow your own. Aloha.

Chris

I understand that when you only pull up two plants or so from a single source, it is possible to do all that. You have a cute little niche going on there. I commend you on that. Do you also plant, grow, cultivate, clean, dry, and process the Boroguru root you sell from Vanuatu? That would be impressive.

 

[Adam]

I understand that when you only pull up two plants or so from a single source, it is possible to do all that. You have a cute little niche going on there. I commend you on that. Do you also plant, grow, cultivate, clean, dry, and process the Boroguru root you sell from Vanuatu? That would be impressive.

Now now, little bit petty that isn't it?

 

[Bula Kava House]

Vendors which don't know what they're selling should begin selling their kava after not before testing. Then consumers should be informed of percentages of adulteration so they may make the decision to buy the particular variety or not.

Maybe you should be calling out the vast majority of vendors who have never shown a coa for any kava, not one of the few actually trying to do something about the serious lack of quality control in this business. These kavas have been tested before, though this current batch is waiting for results. We have every reason to believe that this kava is of the purist and highest quality. If you're waiting for test results to buy your kava go ahead, but good luck finding a vendor who has those results to give you if they aren't at least trying to become compliant with AKA standards. I know for a fact that outside of Root of Happiness, no other active vendor on the forum will have the test results you require at this time. You might have to take a kava sabbatical.

 

[Bula Kava House]

@Judd Rench Thanks, I do see the results are from the University of Suva, I just reread them. I'm still irked by the blacking out of any information that would refer to the Kava or the vendor in question but you have your reasons and I will have to be happy with that. Maybe in the future the A.K.A. can arrange to have a certificate that states the name of the vendor and the kava strain tested. That would be ideal for us Kava consumers.

@Deleted User (A.K.A. Mr. Wizard) when you get your new lab equipment up and running, then please post a detailed Kava Test Result for us so everyone can see what that looks like. PLease post the colorimeter readings as well so we can see how they compare. And please give us the name of the strain and the vendor as well. You may have to get a notary public to sign off on the results for obvious reasons. As time goes, I hope to see a giant spreadsheet with all your results so we can compare the vendors.

As far as Kava testing goes, I know Lebot is the number one authority on that but at this point I feel you are the number 2 authority. So we can use your results to ascertain the nobility of the kava and we can use the Microbac results to make sure we are not ingesting inordinate amounts of Mercury and Boron. As @HeadHodge said, we can use the results from both Deleted User and Microbac to insure our Kava is safe and Noble.

I understand your frustration with things being blacked out, but these results as shown were never meant to be the form in which they are presented to customers. We were just tired of being harassed so we had to show something. We have to protect ourselves by keeping others from stealing proprietary information. The AKA coa will compile information from all tests in one easily read and understood form. It will show supplier and cultivar. Maybe @Tyler can post an example. They're quite nice.

As for testing, it's great that Deleted User is expanding his knowledge and equipment, but up until now he's only been doing a single line of qualitative type testing that as of yet still isn't completely verified. There are PhD scientists who have been testing and researching kava for known compounds in certified labs using very complex equipment for decades. These are the labs and experts that I'll be using, and to discount their extensive training and experience as somehow inferior to Deleted User is a little disrespectful.

I commend Deleted User on his passion and thirst for knowledge. He may be THE leader in that, but as of yet, I think even he'd be willing to admit that he's an amateur researcher, still learning the ropes. I look forward to his results.

 

[Adam]

I may be wrong but it's obviously hard to take some "amateurs" in a forum discrediting your kava and your business when you've went to lengths to pay a healthy sum of money to 'professionals' and next thing your getting told that was a waste of time and your selling something completely different to what you believe, with fantastic foundation for belief. I can understand that completely