HeadHodge
Bula To Eternity
My 2 cents... Baby steps as a tactic, Perfection as a goal.
Harpo.Well done and thanks for the doing the smart stuff. I drink not to think. So I appreciate u making sure its safe for me.
Roaddog
Kava Who?
Great job @Deleted User . Your have impressed me so much, I just don't know what to say. Except thank you for all that you contribute. Much love. Roaddog....
verticity
I'm interested in things
@Deleted User So are you actually going into business doing this? This seems pretty heavy duty. Will you still be testing samples for free? I mean, there is probably a market for reasonably priced kava testing for consumers. Don't mean to be crass by bringing this up, just curious.
HeadHodge
Bula To Eternity
@Deleted User, you don't need to answer if you don't want to, but I'm curious how much your HPLC equipment cost you? Also do you have any idea approx. how much an XDS MasterLab Analyzer would cost?
Tyler
Kava Vendor
Hey Deleted User, I edited the post because it wasnt productive and I try remain productive on here and push kava in the right direction. I feel that personal opinions should take back seat to the common goal of standardizing and protecting kava, rather than be a hurdles for progress as they have been. Im glad youre using HPLC, well done.
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Deleted User01
@Tyler, everyday I see detailed posts from Deleted User explaining his techniques and showing us real test results. And lots and lots of real test results. When I see all that activity on a daily basis then I quickly become a believer. I want to believe that the AKA is doing the same but so far the results I have seen are less than impressive. What can the AKA do to show us what they are doing on a daily basis? Can the members of the AKA (many of our vendors) come to the forum and show us real test results and explain to us how it all came about and make us believers? I love the idea of the AKA being the consumer watch dog for us Kava drinkers but I just haven't seen enough hard data to know what is going on. It is one thing to talk about it and it is another to post data. So Deleted User is my man until more data is forthcoming but I'm hopeful that more data will be forthcoming from the AKA in the future.
Fellow Members, am I out of line here or have I ignored something? Please post your opinions and set me straight if I don't have my facts right.
Fellow Members, am I out of line here or have I ignored something? Please post your opinions and set me straight if I don't have my facts right.
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Deleted User01
@Deleted User, I thought there were hundreds of members and I though all the major kava vendors were members. I haven't seen a list in writing though. Once we see who is on the list then we can invite them to post here and give us all the details on testing and the AKA. That would be a good thing.
Tyler
Kava Vendor
This is already starting to steer away from Deleted User's thread, and I don't want to hijack the thread so perhaps mods can move it.
Java, the AKA issues a COA based upon the results obtained by scientifically validated methods of testing Kava such as HPLC and HPTLC, performed by credentialed PhD chemists who run licensed, reputable labs. In one instance, one of our members in a futile effort to to satisfy the insatiable appetite of skeptics, posted 14 pages of raw data from which the COA was made for a product that was called into question and even that was refuted because the vendor simply didn't want to give up his suppliers name and address that was listed on the raw data. The response was simply, "_____ is lying," , "I don't believe the test results are real," "orange test tube," and "I called the Lab and they wouldn't argue with me." Lol. What would you like to see if 14 pages of lab results on our member's kava products isn't enough to convince you that the AKA is "doing" something? Is anyone aware of any other organization that makes it a requirement for its members to perform that extensive of tests on their kava in order to sell it?
Respectfully, I believe you are mistaking our lack of daily meddling on the forums with our members not fulfilling their obligations to perform stringent quality control measures on their Kava. The AKA's members test their sometimes 1000kg imports of kava one time and create a COA for them. There is no need for daily postings about our fiddlings with experimental techniques or posting pictures of test tubes to validate what it is that we are doing for the kava industry. This isn't the sort of "data" that we utilize to determine if one of our member's kava will give you brain damage from having 80ppm lead in it, or if you'll be hospitalized from an E. Coli infection from Kava grown with manure and washed with non potable water.
When a proper COA is issued by credentialed labs, theres nothing past that. In terms of posting data and COA's, when a member pays to have a COA performed, its their property. The times that we've posted COA's with lab names and numbers and even 14 pages of raw data as back up, we get inflamed calls and emails from Lab Directors asking us not to publicly post their information because 20 people with no knowledge of chemistry call them argoantly challenging their veteran chemists HPLC results armed with nothing more than skepticism and a rant about test tubes and acetone. Unacceptable.
AKA Members include- Paradise Kava, BKH, Root of Happiness, Wakaya Perfection. There are many others who want to become members, but simply don't quite meet the requirements yet. Its not to say they are not quality vendors, they simply can't meet the requirements for testing, packaging in GMP, etc.. We have 2 additional provisional members whom we are reviewing their materials and should be completed in upcoming weeks. I'm personally visiting their GMP facility to see where and how they are operating. These two members along with BKH represent a significant portion of the online and wholesale market for Kava.
In terms of Deleted User being your man for testing, the AKA is all for independent testing and even more so for validation of our results. It beats, "_____ is lying", "I don't believe the test results are real", "orange test tube", and "I called the Lab and they wouldn't argue with me." We're sincerely happy to see someone else who is motivated to better the quality control for Kava, actually step up to the plate, come out of their own pocket thousands of dollars, and take on the burden of testing. Its not a small undertaking. I've spent two years on the forums here going on and on about FDA laws, GMPs, quality controls, and the implementation of testing standards for the Kava industry and trying to gather support for these concepts and in the end it has landed us one association of vendors and one independent forum member testing Kava. Its an optimal outcome in my opinion. I'm glad you will support someone, even if its not us.
Java, the AKA issues a COA based upon the results obtained by scientifically validated methods of testing Kava such as HPLC and HPTLC, performed by credentialed PhD chemists who run licensed, reputable labs. In one instance, one of our members in a futile effort to to satisfy the insatiable appetite of skeptics, posted 14 pages of raw data from which the COA was made for a product that was called into question and even that was refuted because the vendor simply didn't want to give up his suppliers name and address that was listed on the raw data. The response was simply, "_____ is lying," , "I don't believe the test results are real," "orange test tube," and "I called the Lab and they wouldn't argue with me." Lol. What would you like to see if 14 pages of lab results on our member's kava products isn't enough to convince you that the AKA is "doing" something? Is anyone aware of any other organization that makes it a requirement for its members to perform that extensive of tests on their kava in order to sell it?
Respectfully, I believe you are mistaking our lack of daily meddling on the forums with our members not fulfilling their obligations to perform stringent quality control measures on their Kava. The AKA's members test their sometimes 1000kg imports of kava one time and create a COA for them. There is no need for daily postings about our fiddlings with experimental techniques or posting pictures of test tubes to validate what it is that we are doing for the kava industry. This isn't the sort of "data" that we utilize to determine if one of our member's kava will give you brain damage from having 80ppm lead in it, or if you'll be hospitalized from an E. Coli infection from Kava grown with manure and washed with non potable water.
When a proper COA is issued by credentialed labs, theres nothing past that. In terms of posting data and COA's, when a member pays to have a COA performed, its their property. The times that we've posted COA's with lab names and numbers and even 14 pages of raw data as back up, we get inflamed calls and emails from Lab Directors asking us not to publicly post their information because 20 people with no knowledge of chemistry call them argoantly challenging their veteran chemists HPLC results armed with nothing more than skepticism and a rant about test tubes and acetone. Unacceptable.
AKA Members include- Paradise Kava, BKH, Root of Happiness, Wakaya Perfection. There are many others who want to become members, but simply don't quite meet the requirements yet. Its not to say they are not quality vendors, they simply can't meet the requirements for testing, packaging in GMP, etc.. We have 2 additional provisional members whom we are reviewing their materials and should be completed in upcoming weeks. I'm personally visiting their GMP facility to see where and how they are operating. These two members along with BKH represent a significant portion of the online and wholesale market for Kava.
In terms of Deleted User being your man for testing, the AKA is all for independent testing and even more so for validation of our results. It beats, "_____ is lying", "I don't believe the test results are real", "orange test tube", and "I called the Lab and they wouldn't argue with me." We're sincerely happy to see someone else who is motivated to better the quality control for Kava, actually step up to the plate, come out of their own pocket thousands of dollars, and take on the burden of testing. Its not a small undertaking. I've spent two years on the forums here going on and on about FDA laws, GMPs, quality controls, and the implementation of testing standards for the Kava industry and trying to gather support for these concepts and in the end it has landed us one association of vendors and one independent forum member testing Kava. Its an optimal outcome in my opinion. I'm glad you will support someone, even if its not us.
HeadHodge
Bula To Eternity
Well I see this situation as a win-win to me. I can easily see the AKA as the go to source for vendors self-regulation and @Deleted User as the 3rd party judge of honesty and truth for the consumers. I don't see why we wouldn't want both.
Tyler
Kava Vendor
HeadHodge, My sentiments exactly.
Deleted User01, the way your post reads is, "I want to see a list of AKA members so that I can badger and harass the piss out of them with skepticism and negativity." Do you think that this is the sort of attitude that makes people want to participate around here? is it productive? Perhaps this is why vendor participation is at an all time low on here. Just food for thought. I can a lot my personal sentiments in favor of being positive and productive for kava.
The sad fact of the matter is that there arent many kava companies that currently DO or even WANT to meet all of the AKAs requirements in favor of trading just a few extra dollars per kg for consumer safety, and are therefore not granted membership. But lets not focus on them right? Lets badger those vendors that ARE following the rules and simply ignore the majority of vendors who willfully ignore FDA GMP compliance laws... The same thing vendors did 15 years ago that lead to kava being banned. Again, just food for thought.
Deleted User01, the way your post reads is, "I want to see a list of AKA members so that I can badger and harass the piss out of them with skepticism and negativity." Do you think that this is the sort of attitude that makes people want to participate around here? is it productive? Perhaps this is why vendor participation is at an all time low on here. Just food for thought. I can a lot my personal sentiments in favor of being positive and productive for kava.
The sad fact of the matter is that there arent many kava companies that currently DO or even WANT to meet all of the AKAs requirements in favor of trading just a few extra dollars per kg for consumer safety, and are therefore not granted membership. But lets not focus on them right? Lets badger those vendors that ARE following the rules and simply ignore the majority of vendors who willfully ignore FDA GMP compliance laws... The same thing vendors did 15 years ago that lead to kava being banned. Again, just food for thought.
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Deleted User01
I don't have an axe to grind with the AKA. I'm primarily interested in Kava Testing. I'm not here for any other purpose but you are right about one thing, I am skeptical. However a good dose of meaningful written data from a Lab that does TRUE Kava testing would surely cure me of my skepticism. I appreciate the fact that the Kava in question was tested and 14 pages of results were output. And I'm glad to say that the Kava in question had no mercury and other potentially toxic minerals and substances that a generic lab might provide. I believe the lab in question is Microbac Laboratories, Inc. and Debra D. Elliot PHD (Director of Business Development) replied that they DO test nutritional supplements and they DO NOT test Kava root powder at this time. I'll grant you that it is possible that they may have tested the Kava in question as a nutritional supplement. So we got a bunch of pages of test results that do not interest us because they don't do true Kava Testing.
However, Deleted User just mentioned “Australian Certified Organic” and a Kavalactone Assay from the University of the South Pacific as being part of the test results. Could you explain the significance of that and how those results are important to us?
Again, I apologize if my skepticism is miscontrued as chiding the AKA. That is not my intention. I just want meaningful Kava Test Results that test for the chemical properties that are unique to Kava and that are important to all Kava drinkers worldwide. If you could summarize the results of that test in terms of chemotype, Flavokaines, Kavalactones then I would be very grateful.
@HeadHodge, you are absolutely right about two tests being better than one. It would be nice if they somehow dovetailed and they both told us what we want to know.
However, Deleted User just mentioned “Australian Certified Organic” and a Kavalactone Assay from the University of the South Pacific as being part of the test results. Could you explain the significance of that and how those results are important to us?
Again, I apologize if my skepticism is miscontrued as chiding the AKA. That is not my intention. I just want meaningful Kava Test Results that test for the chemical properties that are unique to Kava and that are important to all Kava drinkers worldwide. If you could summarize the results of that test in terms of chemotype, Flavokaines, Kavalactones then I would be very grateful.
@HeadHodge, you are absolutely right about two tests being better than one. It would be nice if they somehow dovetailed and they both told us what we want to know.