Question to Kavasseur

[Deleted User01]

I myself believe that Tudei has bad effects that counter all the good effects we expect from kava. Like if I'm trying to cut down on alcohol, I don't expect Kava to make me drunk and give me a Hangover. I'm trying to avoid that. Secondly, I do believe that the aerial parts of the kava plant are poisonous. Of course, both Tudei and Aerial parts can effect one guy more adversely than the next guy but we should never have to throw the dice to find out if we are "that guy".

So @Kavasseur, on the 2 questions of Tuidie and Aerial parts. What is your opinion? And I don't mean this to be a rambling thread like the last one. I just seek your opinion for all to know and I really don't want anyone piling on because they disagree with you. Just your opinion in one simple post. And I wouldn't even be asking you this question if it were not for your Kava Review site that can effect decisions that Newbies make concerning the Kava they consume.

 

[Kojo Douglas]

Thanks Deleted User01.

If I might begin by addressing the first part of your post:

Most people who are trying to stop drinking alcohol are doing so because of alcoholism, not because they get hangovers. Kava as an alternative to alcohol solely for the purpose of avoiding hangovers would also probably be a good idea for obvious reasons (not drinking alcohol in the first place). I would suggest labeled non-Tudei Kavas to people who are avoiding hangovers, with the caveat that a Kava hangover and an alcohol hangover have almost nothing in common. I would also express to them that Kava as a stand-alone substitute for alcohol is probably not going to cut it and that they should seek social and personal support.

Also, I would never advocate for consuming the aerial parts of Piper methysticum, and never have. Even though aerial parts of the plant might effect people differently, they are undoubtedly toxic and poisonous. This is not the equivalent to Tudei - which has not been proven to be either unhealthy or poisonous.

Tudei and aerial parts of Piper methysticum are not equivalents. It would be false to lump them together.

My opinion on Tudei is simple: it is a great recreational Kava for people who like it and can tolerate it. Nobody should have the right to take away Tudei from people who want to drink it. There is no conclusive evidence that Tudei (or any) Kava is bad for your health. Kava bans are legal actions taken by nation states and would have occurred with our without Tudei. The Kava ban was associated with actual observed health problems resulting from tainted extracts, Kava with added chemicals, and other direct adulterations of the natural plant.

All that being said, I would love to see vendors label their Kavas as Tudei or Nobel. I think the best way to do this would be for vendors and the Kava community to have more direct interactions with the farmers themselves. My impression is that Kava farmers in Pacific Island nations cultivate many different kinds of Kava, and when it is bundled together for export there is a large amount of variety within a batch. Nonetheless, for logistical reasons vendors give Kava a general name like "Borugu," "Tanna," or "Pentecost." So when that Kava is tested, it only represents a margin of the batch. This is one of the reasons I don't believe that the True Kava tests are reliable, and that they are only effective when you have large scale commercial operations like Gourmet Hawaiian Kava. This relationship is further complicated because GHK receives direct endorsements from TK and they often group together in arguments. It has "CONFLICT OF INTEREST" written all over it, and has even led me to avoid GHK.

I couldn't be more clear than this, and I don't want to continue the Kava flame war on this discussion board. It is clear that people have strong opinions about this. I have chosen to reject the testing system because I have deep-rooted (no pun intended) experience in agribusiness, the agricultural economy of developing countries, and with Kava itself.

So yes, people who are sensitive to Kava should drink Kavas that are labeled "Noble" with the caveat that they still might have unwanted side effects. They should be informed if a Kava is stronger than other Kavas. But this should be the responsibility of vendors and not amateur scientists who are not pharmacists (even though they might feel that they are).

K

 

[Deleted User01]

Ok, well said.

On the alcohol thing, I used to be a guy that was drinking everyday. I always started with 2 drinks which might be ok. But you start to liking it after the 2nd drink and you end up going to the "well" one too many times. I don't have that problem with Kava because it is not as tasty as single malt scotch, red wine, or craft beer. Like many others around here, I'm not going to seek professional help for alcohol. It just ain't gonna happen. So I use Kava to cut down my consumption of alcohol to about 2/3 times a week. And Kava has somehow made me more attuned to "how I get" when I have 1 too many. So I actually think twice before I go to the 3rd drink. So there are people who say, "well why don't you just stop drinking". Because I'm one of those that HAS TO HAVE SOMETHING after work. Yeah, it's a personal weakness. But that's the way I am and there are millions if not billions just like me. So on the alcohol thing, I totally disagree with you.

I do buy into your assertion that people should be allowed to drink Tudei if they wish. That's ok by me, free country and all that. However, I'm not going to encourage Newbies to drink a type of Kava that was shunned by Islanders for 1000s of years. But everyone must make their own decision.

And I think we all totally agree with you that kava should be labeled as Noble or Tudei. If all the vendors would do that, then @Deleted User would be out of business. Yeah, no need for testing anymore, vendors are doing it for themselves.

So we ain't so far off after all (except for the alcohol thing).

 

[Deleted User01]

One more thing, I was looking for the endorsement of GHK by TK and couldn't find it. I know they have the same opinions on Noble vs Tudei. I did find this page where there are 6 vendors listed as certified http://www.truekava.com/vendors.html

 

[Kojo Douglas]

I'm a recovering alcoholic myself, Deleted User01. And I still drink beer sometimes. Kava has helped me overcome the urges.

 

[sɥɐʞɐs]

I'm honestly curious, when people say things like "Tudei has not been proven to be either unhealthy or poisonous", where does the basis for this statement come from ?
Is it just an opinion, is it just their personal experience ?
As far as I'm aware FK-B has been scientifically proven to be a hepatotoxin and causes cell death. FK-B exists in Tudei kava at 3-4 times the rate than it does in Noble kava.
That thereby makes Tudei kava unhealthy and/or poisonous, doesn't it ?

Admittedly, there are also Flavokavains in noble kava, but to a much lesser degree...and obviously at this level it has been deemed safe by actual professionals who have studied this.
Even noble kava is not a nutritious health food and certainly could also cause problems under specific circumstances. But according to science, Tudei would be much more likely to.
Granted, you could hypothetically drink tudei your whole life without any major issue, you might end up like one of those old smokers who proudly tells you they've been smoking since 1965 and never been sick once. But obviously, we all agree that smoking is unhealthy and poisonous, right ?

 

[Kojo Douglas]

@sakahs I've stated elsewhere that I no longer want to argue about this. I want to contribute to a peaceful community here.

So to give my final thoughts on the subject, I will propose that you look at the research for yourself and see whether Tudei has been proven to be unhealthy. Do a comparison of a three-beer-a-day habit to a three-shell-a-day habit of Tudei. Look at the kind of damage drinking alcohol does to one's liver.

@Deleted User , for the sake of this forum and everyone who participates, I am not going to respond to any more of your comments. Best of luck with True Kava

 

[Zac Imiola (Herbalist)]

I don't think smoking itself is inherently poisonous or unhealthy.
I don't smoke anymore. But small amounts of tobacco are actually very healthy. Organic tobacco that is

 

[Frankie808]

So what your saying is if i am TK Certified agreeing with Deleted User would be a conflict of interest ??
From my experience no one likes Tudei. So don't want to waste time on Tudei.

 

[Deleted User01]

Given the choice, I would prefer 3 beers a day to 3 shells of Tudei. Tudei makes me too fuzzy and wobbly the next day. 3 beers ain't so much. I have always said that we will never have all the scientific data we crave until Johnson and Johnson or some other conglomerate pours a couple of 100 million dollars into testing. And if people want to debunk the Acetone test that was invented by Dr. Lebot, then do it. In the long run, I'm going with the wisdom of the Islanders who only drank it ceremonial and sparingly at that. Now I'm sure that tidbit of knowledge was passed down from generation to generation but so has lots of really good wisdom. So I'm hanging my hat on that and the testing both.

 

[sɥɐʞɐs]

It's okay, you don't need to answer. I'll just repeat, the only actual scientific evidence/studies available do indeed say that Tudei is more unhealthy than noble.
Saying but dooesss itt reaallllyy prooove anything, is simply a rejection of the only science we have available in favor of your own non-scientific opinion.
No matter what opinion anyone has on kava or tudei, it is true that the amount of actual science done on the subject is VERY small and therefor the complete answers to every variable and question are still mostly unknown to everyone. However, when the little science we do have, clearly has shown that Tudei is more toxic than noble, we have to take that as the truest knowledge unless new actual science happens to overturn the previous claims.
Whether or not alcohol consumption is safer/worse than tudei has never been the question and has no relevance being brought up as a point. All alcohol is poisonous and creates the toxic Acetaldehyde as it metabolizes. Even though no direct studies are available that Im aware of, I think we'd all say daily Tudei consumption is likely to be safer than daily alcohol consumption. The question is, is daily Tudei consumption more dangerous than daily noble consumption...and so far the limited science says, yes. To say anything otherwise, is just a blatant rejection of science, which should not be taken seriously by anyone until proven otherwise, with science.

 

[Gourmet Hawaiian Kava]

I'm honestly curious, when people say things like "Tudei has not been proven to be either unhealthy or poisonous", where does the basis for this statement come from ?
Is it just an opinion, is it just their personal experience ?
As far as I'm aware FK-B has been scientifically proven to be a hepatotoxin and causes cell death. FK-B exists in Tudei kava at 3-4 times the rate than it does in Noble kava.
That thereby makes Tudei kava unhealthy and/or poisonous, doesn't it ?

Admittedly, there are also Flavokavains in noble kava, but to a much lesser degree...and obviously at this level it has been deemed safe by actual professionals who have studied this.
Even noble kava is not a nutritious health food and certainly could also cause problems under specific circumstances. But according to science, Tudei would be much more likely to.
Granted, you could hypothetically drink tudei your whole life without any major issue, you might end up like one of those old smokers who proudly tells you they've been smoking since 1965 and never been sick once. But obviously, we all agree that smoking is unhealthy and poisonous, right ?

Hi Shakas, I already tried to tell @Kavasseur this about tudei being bad for you as shown in studies but all he can do is say it is not and he does not provide any evidence so I will be making a post with all the studies that show it does have the potential for harm. He just does not have any info to support what he says. Might as well give up on trying to get him to understand this point. I will just have my thread with all the evidence and this will be for all the people who really want the truth. Aloha.

Chris

 

[sɥɐʞɐs]

I don't think smoking itself is inherently poisonous or unhealthy.
I don't smoke anymore. But small amounts of tobacco are actually very healthy. Organic tobacco that is

Organic Noble Tobacco
Of course, that's not what i'm talking about. I'm speaking of the widely consumed, widely available most commonly smoked retail cigarettes.
Even actual poisons can be fine to consume at the right dosage. We're talking regular/habitual consumption. Dosages are what make something bad for you, more so than the chemical itself. We consume poisons in our food all the time, just at levels that don't typically cause problems. Consuming something with proper moderation doesn't make it all-together safe, it just makes it safe enough, if you stick to the proper dosage and moderation.

 

[HeadHodge]

Organic Noble Tobacco
Of course, that's not what i'm talking about. I'm speaking of the widely consumed, widely available most commonly smoked retail cigarettes.
Even actual poisons can be fine to consume at the right dosage. We're talking regular/habitual consumption. Dosages are what make something bad for you, more so than the chemical itself. We consume poisons in our food all the time, just at levels that don't typically cause problems. Consuming something with proper moderation doesn't make it all-together safe, it just makes it safe enough, if you stick to the proper dosage and moderation.

Good post.

 

[Zac Imiola (Herbalist)]

Right so in this case... tuedi too is more like tobacco. in that it seems its only use was ceremonial aka once in a while. not daily use.

 

[Edward]

You know I'm not even really too bothered about if tudei is available for sale or not just as long as everything is labelled as it should be. I don't think known tudei kavas being for sale is the problem, the problem is the adulteration and passing off of a mixture of non noble kavas as pure noble. I understand that there are difficulties involved in this such as farmers bundling together any old kava they can to fulfil a shipment but I believe in time that sort of issue can be dealt with by education and market pressure.

At the end of the day I don't think it is the availability or not of tudei kava that will ultimately have an effect on the kava industry, the real problems for the future are if the industry itself can't sort out the problem of adulteration and/or poor labelling.

 

[Deleted User01]

That's right @Edward, truth in advertising. That's what bugs some vendors, "Truth in Advertising". I think the majority of people here do not want Tudei and they don't want to accidently buy it either.

 

[Edward]

Also now Doug's reviews are taking into account the testing too everyone who sees the review knows whether the kava is tested noble or not and can make up their own mind on if they want to try that kava. I'm noticing that some of the best reviews are for KWK products, no surprise there but they are all tested noble so there is a kava for everyone in the reviews.

 

[Kojo Douglas]

Yes, Edward. I have been taking the tests into account in my reviews. My goal is to get the most information as possible across to help people make personal decisions. Thanks for lifting a shell to my reviews!