What's new

Acetone Test now Validated by Dr. Lebot

Zac Imiola (Herbalist)

Kava Connoisseur
Woot woot... once again science doesn't provide wisdom but reinforces it !
Win win win :)
Haha seriously Garry good post (obviously) this is essential to kavas path :)
 

verticity

I'm interested in things
Ha ha! There is ONE LED! (I mean you could make a tester with just a single 400 nm LED light source...)
 

verticity

I'm interested in things
A few comments:

  • According to Table 2, the difference in absorbance at 470 nm is even more pronounced (noble = 0.30, two day = 0.61), but I can see why they used 400 nm: because those numbers have the smallest relative standard deviations.
  • That significance figure for the absorbance at 400 nm would no doubt show more significance if the whole 400-700 nm range were convoluted together to find the dominant wavelength. :)
  • So I haven't read it in detail, but it appears that they are saying that flavokavains are responsible for the coloration of the acetone test. Is that correct?
  • It looks like they only used Vanuatu varieties, as well. Now I would assume that the greatest genetic diversity of kava exists on Vanuatu (because that is where it likely originated), so that might not be such an issue, but it would be good to verify these results with non-Vanuatu varieties as welll.
 

verticity

I'm interested in things
@verticity

No, FKs are not responsible for the coloration, p31:
There is a need for further research to identify the different molecules involved in the dark colours of the extracts (most likely a combination of numerous different pigments and tannins).

The need for more diverse samples is addressed, p31-32:
However, the use of a simple colorimeter, such as the one tested in the present study, allows for fairly easy control of the raw material quality with comparatively affordable equipment, which is very encouraging for the development of standards throughout the Pacific region; nonetheless, a more comprehensive survey is necessary to characterise varieties from Fiji, Tonga, Samoa, Hawaii, Pohnpei and Papua New Guinea.
Hmm.. I was just noticing this figure:
2016-02-19 21_48_34-Lebot and Legendre 2016.pdf - Foxit PhantomPDF.jpg


The UV-VIS absorbance of FKB and FKC extends up to 450+ nm. Compare that with this figure:
2016-02-19 21_50_00-Lebot and Legendre 2016.pdf - Foxit PhantomPDF.jpg


Blue is noble, red is Two Day (Green is Wichmannii: it's so strong its peak absorbance is greater than 1!!! That can't be right never mind that is OK I was thinking of transmittance!)
But anyway it appears that the bump that distinguishes noble from two day is right where the visible portion of the FKB/FKC absorbance curves are.
 

Gourmet Hawaiian Kava

Kava Expert
Kava Vendor
This is great news, I always knew that this test would be validated because when I talk with Dr. Lebot he would tell me things that could lead to no other conclusion. This is great news and thanks for sharing it with us. Now you can continue your work unimpeded and confident of your findings.
Now just think of when kava is added to the Codex, that will solidify the stance that tudei is not a daily drinking kava and most important it puts kava in a "safe food" group. I am hoping that the FDA will change it's view of kava after that. Keep up the good work, you have done so much for ensuring the availability of safe high quality kava. Aloha my friend.

Chris
 

verticity

I'm interested in things
I think FKs may contribute in some small way to the coloration, but I don't think they are largely responsible. Peak abs on FKs is ~355nm, and there's an obvious absorption peak at ~431nm in two-days that can't be FKs alone. I've been using this as a "spot-check" for over a year and have proposed that this represents the actual "mystery molecule". (We won't know for sure until someone spends the $50k+ to find out!) In addition, I think the declining absorption of the FKs in the visible range would be lost in the natural spectrum of kava, both noble and two-day. Here's an example:
View attachment 5359
Yeah, obviously the peak of FKs in the UV, but I wonder what your spectra would look like with a UV-VIS spectro. Would the broad peak around 420 shift to the UV? I think it might. Now that spiky thing at 435 nm is cool, but could be indicative of finer structure of the FKs, rather than a separate compound, that is "revealed" when the FK concentration is high enough. You could answer that question by doing pure FKB/C in your spectrometer. That figure of Lebot's (Figure 2) looks like the resolution might not be good enough to see that spike: it looks too smooth.
 
Last edited:

verticity

I'm interested in things
Also note that Lebot's colorimeter curves for the Two Day appear to "peak"* at 400 nm. In your spectra the Two Day spectra has a higher absorbance at 440 nm than at 400 nm. That I think supports my "the peak would shift to the UV with a UV-VIS spectrometer" theory. That broad peak at 420 nm could be an artifact of the detector sensitivity of your spectrometer.

*"peak" - of course it doesn't actually peak at 400, but that is the highest absorbance you can see. You can't see the top of the peak, which would be somewhere in the UV.
 

verticity

I'm interested in things
In particular the "spiky things" could be vibrational structure possibly, which is pretty cool that you can see that in the liquid phase. :) If that's what it is, then they would be temperature dependent. If you chilled the sample the pattern of the spikes should change. Likewise if you heat the sample.
 

verticity

I'm interested in things
You can chill acetone down to dry ice temperature btw.

(Sorry to keep babbling, but this stuff excites me)
 

Sam Handwich

Kava Enthusiast
I think FKs may contribute in some small way to the coloration, but I don't think they are largely responsible. Peak abs on FKs is ~355nm, and there's an obvious absorption peak at ~431nm in two-days that can't be FKs alone. I've been using this as a "spot-check" for over a year and have proposed that this represents the actual "mystery molecule". (We won't know for sure until someone spends the $50k+ to find out!) In addition, I think the declining absorption of the FKs in the visible range would be lost in the natural spectrum of kava, both noble and two-day. Here's an example:
View attachment 5359
Hi Deleted User, thank you so much for sharing this. Anything that ensures the safety of the Kava we drink is great news to me. I am particularly interested in the graph showing the testing of the adulterated Nene. To what degree can adulteration be detected? It would seem by that graph that a 25% Tudei mix is detectable, but what about lesser amounts? Is there a point in which it is possible to "sneak" Tudei through the tests?
 

ThePiper

Kava Lover
Interesting kavascience.

Is nene like the gold standard for nobility or something? Has the lowest FKB vs most strains or something?
 

verticity

I'm interested in things
Interesting kavascience.

Is nene like the gold standard for nobility or something? Has the lowest FKB vs most strains or something?
The Hawaiian kavas from GHK are a useful reference, because Chris grows them himself, and is an expert on Hawaiian cultivars. He controls production from dirt to bag. There is no chance they could be adulterated. Other vendors who buy from wholesale sellers can never be sure what they are getting.
 

Gourmet Hawaiian Kava

Kava Expert
Kava Vendor
Interesting kavascience.

Is nene like the gold standard for nobility or something? Has the lowest FKB vs most strains or something?
I think you are correct, I know that in Hawaiian history they talk about giving the 'Awa Nene to children. They really know what they were doing when it comes to plants in Hawaii. They have to because if it does not grow here it has to be brought here and we know 'Awa was important enough for them to bring it with them on the canoe's and it is not like they can hop in a canoe and go to California to get some supplies, they knew what they were talking about back then. Aloha.

Chris
 

Sam Handwich

Kava Enthusiast
Interesting kavascience.

Is nene like the gold standard for nobility or something? Has the lowest FKB vs most strains or something?
I read that Nene is the most Noble of the Noble somewhere in this forum. For this reason I chose Nene as my known Noble control in my 1st acetone test. It was a good call as it certainly appears to have the lightest color in the test. Nene on the far left -
20160214_082736.jpg
 

Kojo Douglas

The Kavasseur
It looks like the old saying that the world can be divided into quantitative folks and qualitative folks holds quite true. I judge Kava by the way it makes me feel. No disrespect whatsoever to folks who are into the science :)

Peace
 

ThePiper

Kava Lover
So is the fkb content purely related to cultivar or is there some other factor. Ie, will nene be the most noble kava in all cases and conditions?
 

verticity

I'm interested in things
So is the fkb content purely related to cultivar or is there some other factor. Ie, will nene be the most noble kava in all cases and conditions?
Actually, kavas are either noble or not, there is not really such a thing as a kava that is "more noble" than another (if you are talking about pure cultivars; if the kava is adulterated with two day you can talk about percent noble vs. percent two day in the mixture, though)

I don't think the FKB content of Nene is known, because Lebot only studied Vanuatu kavas.
 
Top