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Arginine supplementation for non-topical treatment of kava dermopathy

Sorry if I'm corrupting this thread...finding the forum a bit confusing to use to be honest. I've been a pretty heavy kava drinker for about 6 years now and have definitely experienced skin issues regularly. However, two weeks ago, I got the full Kani Kani alligator skin back, my hands started cracking and throbbing and I was generally pretty miserable. So...I have stopped completely and am now on day 11. While it has gotten better, it's not totally gone away. My back still has scales and my entire body is still dry and flaky. I look like Pigpen from Peanuts when I take of my clothes! Does anyone know how long one must stop before the dermopathy completely reverses itself?
 

jonaspmd

found kava
Sorry if I'm corrupting this thread...finding the forum a bit confusing to use to be honest. I've been a pretty heavy kava drinker for about 6 years now and have definitely experienced skin issues regularly. However, two weeks ago, I got the full Kani Kani alligator skin back, my hands started cracking and throbbing and I was generally pretty miserable. So...I have stopped completely and am now on day 11. While it has gotten better, it's not totally gone away. My back still has scales and my entire body is still dry and flaky. I look like Pigpen from Peanuts when I take of my clothes! Does anyone know how long one must stop before the dermopathy completely reverses itself?
Short answer, I think 28 days or 4 weeks is a decent period of time to have in mind whenever you have any doubts whether the dermopathy is completely gone. This is because epidermis regeneration cycle takes that long.

Understanding the life cycle of skin | Galderma
(this is random source that came on top after a google search, but I know this fact and Galderma is a biotech company involved in dermatology so they can misinform their investors)

From my experience the dermopathy always comes in waves. It always starts with slightly dry lips and eyes, and if you don't watch the kava dosage, face symptoms worsen a lot and then go all the way down to feet in a wave, ie you face and neck can improve, while the lower body skin is in its worst. It is an amazing condition in itself, especially since it's completely reversible.

So drinking kava has an accumulative effect. The amazing part here is that the single dose you had, in my thinking, has still lingering negative effects on skin days if not weeks after you drank it. Personal sensitivity is probably a major factor here as somebody develops full blown dermopathy after three weeks of daily consumption and somebody after six months. Reading comments on this forum seems like experienced drinkers find a sweet spot in terms of kava effects and side effect (I'm not there yet after three years of drinking it). This is a good thing in a away, as what else would stop you drinking yourself to oblivion. If kava would have any less side effects and god forbid, it would taste like Twinings, then global supply of kava would be consumed by a single village in the UK.

I had episodes when a new kava dermopathy "wave" would start even after two weeks after I stopped drinking. But I could tell it's kava doing its work, as it would also start in the same pattern, but in a much milder way. So, you can find your self that you feet look like you described, torso is just fine, but you start noticing new dry lips and itchy eyes. After two weeks!

I am not saying you need to wait for the full 4 week cycle. I am also not claiming that kava specifically targets epidermis, I have never looked into this question in detail. But you're on your way to look better soon. One conclusion I made, that if you assume that it has a cumulative effect, then stopping altogether is the best option to reverse the dermopathy as soon as your body allows. But this is not necessarily the only option. I have been able to manage dermopathy by significantly cutting the dose, like 1 or 2 table spoons per day, then a day off, then little bit again. But this approach is prone to you relapsing back to your usual kava drinking pattern, so a total break is still the best option (for other reasons as well like GGT and ALP normalisation, if that matters is another question).
 

jonaspmd

found kava
So I wonder, accordingly, if supplementing kava sessions with some natural nitric oxide sources will help to head off dermopathy and related symptoms. Beet juice, for example, is a great source that I have used to naturally control blood pressure. If dermo is also related somewhat to dehydration as many people believe, then some beet juice might work on both fronts. If beet juice sounds not so tasty to you, let's remember that we got here by drinking something not so acclaimed for its taste. But people with hypotension (low blood pressure) should probably be careful with vasodilators like beet juice.

I also wonder if kava or its core constituents could be used as a treatment or supplement for minor hypotension.
Remember the whole point of the original post is to try to come with a framework to try large doses of a know substance hoping more people could report results results. After a long period of experimentation I think it works for me with some reasonable effect. This then leads to exactly your question. If you think that improving NO metabolism works, then there are a lot of ways how you can use that. I use pine bark extract. I was not familiar with beet juice, but will certainly look into it. I a big fan of borscht soup, so might end up making it a lot more.

Very good point about those prone to hypotension, especially postural hypotension. I should have included that in the original post as a warning. Usually people with symptomatic hypotension feel way worse that people with chronic hypertension. So they already know to avoid vasodilators.
 

jonaspmd

found kava
I know this may be more of a stretch, but since you’re talking small molecules, peptide KPV came to mind. Based on this PubMed article:


It references KPV having possible nitric oxide disposition properties.

I work at a compounding pharmacy, and just thought this association with nitric oxide is cool. Another possible thing that could help dermopathy?
I not a chemist, more on the medical side of things, but would still likely go down the rabbit hole (no pun intended) researching this molecule as I was not aware about it. Key take away for me from the abstract was the application which was topical. Maybe there is a way for a topical approach after all.

Is it an accessible compound? Are there any consumer skin products with it? Looks like there is a bunch of patents from early 2000s, so they're still should be valid, meaning the stuff is expensive.
 
Short answer, I think 28 days or 4 weeks is a decent period of time to have in mind whenever you have any doubts whether the dermopathy is completely gone. This is because epidermis regeneration cycle takes that long.

Understanding the life cycle of skin | Galderma
(this is random source that came on top after a google search, but I know this fact and Galderma is a biotech company involved in dermatology so they can misinform their investors)

From my experience the dermopathy always comes in waves. It always starts with slightly dry lips and eyes, and if you don't watch the kava dosage, face symptoms worsen a lot and then go all the way down to feet in a wave, ie you face and neck can improve, while the lower body skin is in its worst. It is an amazing condition in itself, especially since it's completely reversible.

So drinking kava has an accumulative effect. The amazing part here is that the single dose you had, in my thinking, has still lingering negative effects on skin days if not weeks after you drank it. Personal sensitivity is probably a major factor here as somebody develops full blown dermopathy after three weeks of daily consumption and somebody after six months. Reading comments on this forum seems like experienced drinkers find a sweet spot in terms of kava effects and side effect (I'm not there yet after three years of drinking it). This is a good thing in a away, as what else would stop you drinking yourself to oblivion. If kava would have any less side effects and god forbid, it would taste like Twinings, then global supply of kava would be consumed by a single village in the UK.

I had episodes when a new kava dermopathy "wave" would start even after two weeks after I stopped drinking. But I could tell it's kava doing its work, as it would also start in the same pattern, but in a much milder way. So, you can find your self that you feet look like you described, torso is just fine, but you start noticing new dry lips and itchy eyes. After two weeks!

I am not saying you need to wait for the full 4 week cycle. I am also not claiming that kava specifically targets epidermis, I have never looked into this question in detail. But you're on your way to look better soon. One conclusion I made, that if you assume that it has a cumulative effect, then stopping altogether is the best option to reverse the dermopathy as soon as your body allows. But this is not necessarily the only option. I have been able to manage dermopathy by significantly cutting the dose, like 1 or 2 table spoons per day, then a day off, then little bit again. But this approach is prone to you relapsing back to your usual kava drinking pattern, so a total break is still the best option (for other reasons as well like GGT and ALP normalisation, if that matters is another question).
Thanks for the reply! It's bee a really stressful time for me so it's been Kava vs. Life over here. I've been going through about one 8oz micronized Kalm with Kava can a week. I'm not sure how much a day that is but it seems like a lot for me. It's been a good wake up call to take a break because as you say, it's stopped me from drinking myself into oblivion. I think I'll reintroduce a bit today and if I have a serious slide-back, will try and give it two more weeks.
 

Ellviis

Kava Curious
I not a chemist, more on the medical side of things, but would still likely go down the rabbit hole (no pun intended) researching this molecule as I was not aware about it. Key take away for me from the abstract was the application which was topical. Maybe there is a way for a topical approach after all.

Is it an accessible compound? Are there any consumer skin products with it? Looks like there is a bunch of patents from early 2000s, so they're still should be valid, meaning the stuff is expensive.
I know it’s accessible in the sense you can get a prescription for it at the pharmacy I work at, cream injectable patch or capsule.

I haven’t seen any cream online; I know integrativepeptides sells a capsule. The injectable looks to be available all over online, however I don’t trust them since it’s their word against theirs that their injectable is actually sterile and safe as they say.

I know the injectable is used for various skin conditions, from crowd research from doctor reports and some online research about it’s systemic availability.


If I ever get the dermopathy, coconut supplementation, lots of electrolytes, lotion and a 1 day break clear it from getting worse for me. I take milk thistle every day I take kava too. I don’t know if it does anything, but if kava metabolizes in the liver, the less stress on that organ the better?
 

jonaspmd

found kava
Thanks for the reply! It's bee a really stressful time for me so it's been Kava vs. Life over here. I've been going through about one 8oz micronized Kalm with Kava can a week. I'm not sure how much a day that is but it seems like a lot for me. It's been a good wake up call to take a break because as you say, it's stopped me from drinking myself into oblivion. I think I'll reintroduce a bit today and if I have a serious slide-back, will try and give it two more weeks.
Definitely kava & life. It can be a double whammy situation when you're not exactly in the best place in your life and raging dermopathy does not help either. In this situation, sounds like a plan. Just watch if the symptoms worsen then the side effect is accumulating again.
 

KavaBobo

Kava Curious
Lots of great info…thanx. Also, L-citrulline sustains a more stable nitric oxide blood levels throughout the day. 3 grams of powder in your favorite juice gets it. Of course, L-arginine “spikes” the blood initially but citrulline is stable and produces nitric oxide throughout the day….hth
 

jonaspmd

found kava
Lots of great info…thanx. Also, L-citrulline sustains a more stable nitric oxide blood levels throughout the day. 3 grams of powder in your favorite juice gets it. Of course, L-arginine “spikes” the blood initially but citrulline is stable and produces nitric oxide throughout the day….hth
Yes, I remember reading something about that. The thing is that most clinical studies were done using arginine, while the effects from citrulline are derived theoretically, I think. Also, I probably underestimated the doses in the original post to err on the safe side. It's 10g+ per day when the positive effects becomes really noticeable. Side effect don't really kick in until 15-20g anyway
 

Blergs

Kava Curious
I've got the supplements sitting on the kitchen counter, but my dermo went into hibernation, so I've yet to try it out myself.
Ahh thanks. Lmk.

I've started by eating more spicy recently , as I haven't been and my usually do, and I swear it's helping my dermo which was pretty bad the last couple months. Maybe it's why it wasn't too as bad in past
 

KavaBobo

Kava Curious
I don’t know all of the biochemistry behind L-Lysine but, taking 6 grams a day, for me, keeps the kani away.
 

KavaBobo

Kava Curious
I’d like to add that since I’ve run out of Lysine due to supply chain issues, my dermo has kicked up. Stumbled on a bottle of Arginine capsules, 900 mg each and started taking 2 capsules in the morning. Only after 2 days my dermo went almost completely away. Just thought I’d drop that data point ymmv.
 

Crowe

Kava Curious
This makes sense. This far I have only experienced mild Dermo. I have smoothies regularly that contain items that boost NO. Including arginine. But not in that amount. But I will look into increasing it. So while we are on the subject, things that increase NO are beets or beet powder, beef collagen ( contains arginine) garlic, horse Chestnut, maritime pine, l-leucine. Careful though, with all the increased NO production you might put an eye out in the morning!
 

Crowe

Kava Curious
This makes sense. This far I have only experienced mild Dermo. I have smoothies regularly that contain items that boost NO. Including arginine. But not in that amount. But I will look into increasing it. So while we are on the subject, things that increase NO are beets or beet powder, beef collagen ( contains arginine) garlic, horse Chestnut, maritime pine, l-leucine. Careful though, with all the increased NO production you might put an eye out in the morning!
I also forgot too that betaine is a vaso dialator as well.
 

avahZ

YAHWEH Shalom
Now that this thread has been necroed. I would like to give a heads up. Too much arginine can cause herpies Simplex viruses to act up. Ive delt with dang fever blisters since I was five and from personal experience it is aggrevated by arginine; however, about 500mg of bht is a Gogsend! I can tolerate 600mg of citrulline.
 

KavaBobo

Kava Curious
Been having dermo probs the past 2 months even with taking L-Arginine, Lysine and L- Citrulline. Then I switched my arginine supplements to Arginine Alpha-ketoglutarate or akg and the next day….dermo is gone completely. Taking 4 grams first thing in the morning on an mt stomach.. thought I’d pass this along. I get mine from Swanson…
 

Stephanie12

Herbalist
So I wonder, accordingly, if supplementing kava sessions with some natural nitric oxide sources will help to head off dermopathy and related symptoms. Beet juice, for example, is a great source that I have used to naturally control blood pressure. If dermo is also related somewhat to dehydration as many people believe, then some beet juice might work on both fronts. If beet juice sounds not so tasty to you, let's remember that we got here by drinking something not so acclaimed for its taste. But people with hypotension (low blood pressure) should probably be careful with vasodilators like beet juice.

I also wonder if kava or its core constituents could be used as a treatment or supplement for minor hypotension.
I don't know which I like the taste of more, beet juice or kava(occasionally I drink a strain that tastes like root beer)? There must be something wrong with me. Nitrous oxide? My daughter just opened a bottle of whipped cream, so we have that! Kava and laughing gas together, who would have guessed!
 

PurimGrogger

Because "Shell Silverstein" was already taken
I don't know which I like the taste of more, beet juice or kava(occasionally I drink a strain that tastes like root beer)? There must be something wrong with me. Nitrous oxide? My daughter just opened a bottle of whipped cream, so we have that! Kava and laughing gas together, who would have guessed!
Ha! Nitric oxide is not nitrous oxide, as much as I'd like to get loopy on beets..
 
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